Presbyterians (USA) Approve Ordination of Gay People
After 33 years of debate, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has voted to change its constitution and allow openly gay people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as ministers, elders and deacons.
The outcome is a reversal from only two years ago, when a majority of the churchâ€™s regions, known as presbyteries, voted against ordaining openly gay candidates.
This time, 19 of the churchâ€™s 173 presbyteries switched their votes from no to yes in recent months. The Twin Cities presbytery, which covers Minneapolis and St. Paul, cast the deciding vote at its meeting on Tuesday. The vote was 205 to 56, with 3 abstentions...
Gate Keeper wrote: This is proof that the Presbyterian Church does not follow the Bible or does it read it..
If you were a gatekeeper you would recognize that these are Presbyterian in name only. Rev.11:1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
A Christian must be in a Covenantal relationship with Jehovah other wise he is no Jew inwardly but a Gentile.
Jesus Christ is יהוה צדקנו Yĕhovah tsidqenuw The Lord our Righteousness Jer. 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
New in Focus wrote: .. it ... gave great reasons to love with awe our Triune God; Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
A big AMEN!!
The bride of Christ, His Church, is not in full retreat. It is so encouraging to see so many brothers and sisters in Christ holding true to His calling, singing His praise. If you read some of the many posts here and listen to the many sermons, you'll know that the Church that God built is standing solid. Like you, I stand in awe of Him.
His Church has always fought off apostasy. Stay and fight here. An apostate church needs intercessory prayer, not adjunct members.
Your clarification was helpful to me, CV. We have not been left as orphans so as not to know by God's Word and Spirit when me must leave a church communion for conscience sake. None that I am familiar with, have considered this sect of Presbyterianism viable for many years, there are steps that lead to this kind of reckless abandon.
This past Lord's day I read an excellent sermon of William Guthrie's on the text from Isaiah 44:3 "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:" Never have I read a more encouraging sermon on the veracity of the promises of God, as Peter wrote by the Spirit 2 Peter 1:3-4 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
I commend it to you CV, it strengthen my faith and hope and gave great reasons to love with awe our Triune God; Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
CV wrote: Christ has NOT called us to fight for, or save, a fallen church...
I've been quoted in a few threads as saying this. If this IS what i had said, then I would have issues with me too. But here's what I did say,
CV wrote: Christ has NOT called us to fight for, or save, a fallen church. He has called us to be obedient to Him, as His slaves. He then uses us to save a fallen world for His glory.
"He then .." denotes an order of operation that is missing among many Christians. We are called to Christ, Christ THEN uses us to do all those wonderful things, like saving the churches. The reverse order is to go out on your own strength, and do all those wonderful things to help God along, like joining umbilically to Apostate churches that are CLEARLY in rebellion, whom God CLEARLY abhors, but you can't part company. You can stay in and "save" them on your own. The bible commands intersession, not attachment to sinners.
God CLEARLY abhors them. But you can't part company. It's called IDOLATRY
Southam wrote: Now for todays english lesson. John; the language we will discuss today is english from a place called England. Ever heard of it? Ok the word "denomination" means many congregations of people connected together under one religious conviction (more or less). Now notice that this is about "many" people. Not just one only. The second part of todays lesson is about the word "believer" that is one individual - This is less than a congregation - and less still than a denomination. To conclude John I referred to Liberalism being in all denominations. NOT in all believers. But I know this english language will be difficult for you. Therefore a "denomination" for example the Southern Baptist Convention has individual Liberals amongst its number. Get it? As for "my" quote; "low view of God's work in the soul" - Try and remember that God does not save everyone in a denomination. And some "Christians" are not really Christian.
John UK wrote: When you say that the vile corruption of liberalism is in ALL the denominations, do you mean that it is in all believers, therefore in whatever denomination they join themselves to? Man, you have a low view of God's work in the soul.
Now for todays english lesson.
John; the language we will discuss today is english from a place called England. Ever heard of it?
Ok the word "denomination" means many congregations of people connected together under one religious conviction (more or less).
Now notice that this is about "many" people. Not just one only.
The second part of todays lesson is about the word "believer" that is one individual - This is less than a congregation - and less still than a denomination.
To conclude John I referred to Liberalism being in all denominations. NOT in all believers. But I know this english language will be difficult for you. Therefore a "denomination" for example the Southern Baptist Convention has individual Liberals amongst its number. Get it?
As for "my" quote; "low view of God's work in the soul" - Try and remember that God does not save everyone in a denomination. And some "Christians" are not really Christian.
ASF wrote: Or is this verse (and others like it) only applicable to the unbeliever because the believer's heart is transformed -- no longer deceitful and wicked?
1 John 3:6-10 KJV 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Southam wrote: The reason for this abomination is the vile corruption of Liberalism. That corruption is in ALL the denominations. When this vile corruption becomes dominant, then your denomination will put the abomination in the pulpit too.
When you say that the vile corruption of liberalism is in ALL the denominations, do you mean that it is in all believers, therefore in whatever denomination they join themselves to?
Man, you have a low view of God's work in the soul.
CV wrote: ...Christ has NOT called us to fight for, or save, a fallen church... There is a common trend that as these big denominations, (sick from the outset, viz-a-viz Anglicans), act out in rebellion against God, the faithful form a schism...
CV Two things Just for clarification: 1. Is it the faithful that form a sinful schism? wouldn't it be the errant?
2. Isn't there a difference between a fallen Church and an apostate church, it would seem to me the apostle and prophet John indicates so in Rev.3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."
The apostle John is speaking to the Church of Philadelphia as he did the other 6 Churches and most of these assemblies (one church in different locations) had things that needed correction. It would seem to me important to have a way to determine who is in the apostolic church and that should be based on the foundational doctrine of the apostles and prophets Jesus Christ the Head of the corner, or chief corner stone, that they hold and practice or do not. Isn't a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense different?
Carse wrote: a) Are you telling us that sinners in "church" will not be saved? b)Does denominalisation ..reduce God's salvation power? c) So you are saying the "elect" cannot be saved by God from "a rebellious group"??? Tell me does the fallen world full of sinners count as "a rebellious group?"
The "rebellious group" in this context are the apostate churches. These people that once had the light of the Gospel that now reject "... so great salvation", is here in a state of rebellion, a state of being, what the Elect once WAS.
"Saving sinners" is the work of the Holy Spirit. Why do we insist on saving people and churches on our own strength? None of these rebellious denomination churches are listed in the Gospels as a necessary part of our salvation experience. Why then do we act as if we NEED to belong in there? Our loyalty is to Christ alone. This business of forming two factions, one good & one bad is silly. The rest of the world that doesn't know better sees us "all as Christians with slightly different beliefs." No, were not all "Christians." Lets keep a clear distinction. Imagine if Christians had remained in Mormonism as a faction, we would then accept Mormons as Christians.
"My own assessment would be that Evangelicalism's spiritual condition at the beginning of the twenty-first century is reminiscent of the medieval church just prior to the Protestant Reformation.
"No, I take it back. Things are much worse among Evangelicals today than they were in the Catholic Church in those days."
-Pastor and Blogger Phil Johnson, Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, California, "[URL=http://phillipjohnson.blogspot.com/2005/07/worst-of-times-evangelicalism-in.html]]]The Worst of Times: Evangelicalism in Critical Condition[/URL]," July 2005
postend wrote: ...EG:: Is faith the gift of God - Or mans ability to believe and accept Christ? EG:: Is God sovereign at all times of human existence, including when we are converted/born again? EG:: Is election an act of God on a specific group of people which God has foreknowledge about and predestinated them to election? [URL=http://www.apuritansmind.comhat about the clap happy church depicted in Matt 7:21-23???
I believe that man fell in Adam and that his free will was no longer free because now Adam's actual guilt was imputed to him and he was no longer knowledgeable, righteous, or holy because Adam ceased to obey and now his mutable nature was no longer under obedience and therefore in rebellion.
So we are born with Adam's imputed sin and commit actual sin with increasing tenacity unless we are born again and in that God is the initiator; Salvation is of the Lord. Justification is an act of grace, adoption is an act of grace and sanctification is a work of grace. All grace is God's. But we do have to act in faith. Sanctification is still totally dependent on God it is a work of the Spirit first, but man must also act in response now enabled by grace to be transformed by the renewing of his mind.
postend wrote: John UK What about the clap happy church depicted in Matt 7:21-23???
Matthew 7:21-23 KJV 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
v21 Not everyone that calls Jesus Lord will enter heaven, but only those who obey his voice.
v22 Workers of iniquity shall be damned, even if they profess Christianity. Such do not know Jesus.
v23 At the judgment, Jesus will tell such that he never knew them. And that implies that they did not know him.
postend, it is crucial to know Jesus, to obey Jesus, to love Jesus, to serve Jesus, to hearken to the words of Jesus, in other words to be a Christ-one, a Christian.
You would do well to fear God and keep his commandments, instead of being an armchair Christian who imagines he can go to heaven without repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. God will NOT do that FOR you.