Hundreds of Reformed believers passionate about preaching the Scriptures and making Christ known have convened in Minneapolis for three days of talks centered on the life and teachings of 16th century reformer John Calvin.
Lamenting that many churches today have lost confidence in the truthfulness and authority of the Bible, Julius Kim, associate professor of Practical Theology at Westminster Seminary in California, called Christians to heed Calvin's voice.
"In many of our churches the Bible has been functionally rejected in place of what we could gain from some sort of rational exercise on the one hand or some sort of emotional experience on the other," Kim said at the national conference, hosted by Desiring God Ministries, on Friday....
Mike wrote: Hence we see, that the apostle leaves nothing to men in procuring salvation. In these three phrases, â€” not of yourselves, â€” it is the gift of God, â€” not of works,
Deja vu??? Have we had this one up before, Mike? I cant help feeling we have said this before. However...
"Faith is the principal work of the Holy Spirit (Institutes 3.1.4). Faith is the proper and entire work of the Holy Spirit (Institutes 3.1.4). We cannot quicken faith in ourselves or predispose ourselves for it in any way. There is not in us any commencement of faith or any preparation of it." John Calvin Commentary John 6:45
I think I'll make you buy the coffee. ____________
Mike. If the original Author wrote two distinct Greek words in these two verses, what must that imply?
Reform Church Again wrote: --- Thus "Salvation" - being only from God, then would not fit the Eph 2:8 verse as well as faith does. How about that?
9. "Not of works." Instead of what he had said, that their salvation is of grace, he now affirms, that "it is the gift of God." Instead of what he had said, "Not of yourselves," he now says, "Not of works." Hence we see, that the apostle leaves nothing to men in procuring salvation. In these three phrases, â€” not of yourselves, â€” it is the gift of God, â€” not of works, â€” he embraces the substance of his long argument in the Epistles to the Romans and to the Galatians, that righteousness comes to us from the mercy of God alone, â€” is offered to us in Christ by the gospel, â€” and is received by faith alone, without the merit of works." Calvin, Commentary on Ephesians 2:9
As you can see, Calvin contrasts salvation which is of grace with salvation which is not of works, and plainly states in the first sentence that the phrase "it is the gift of God" (v8) refers to salvation. Now be a nice boy (Reformed) and listen to the man.
Ah, John, U.K., there are only two versions of the NASB, and both are considered very good, the last one mainly got rid of the "thine," "thy," and "ye" which is of course an anachronism for today, but of course as the translators of the KJV pointed out in the preface to the KJV, [URL=http://www.dbts.edu/journals/1996_2/Preface.pdf]]] The Preface to the King James Version And the King James Only position[/URL],
1 Corinthians 14:9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 1Corintians 14:11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. ---[URL=http://www.lockman.org/nasb/nasbcmp.php]]]NASB[/URL]
Since both versions of the NASB are modern enough to be protected by copyright, I have to give some indication of where those verses came from, and when you click on the [URL=http://www.lockman.org/nasb/nasbcmp.php]]]NASB[/URL] you will have explained to you changes made between versions. Oh, [URL=http://www.ihcc.org/images/booklets/pdf/L105.pdf]]]Election: Whose Choice?[/URL]
June wrote: ... Of HIS OWN WILL begat HE us with the WORD of TRUTH, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of HIS creatures." (James 1:17-18) (emphasis mine)
This is surely a good text to show that it is by God's will not ours (i.e. baptism) that we are born again (born of God). The new birth may be mysterious, but it sure brings life where there was only death, and it brins forth the fruits of repentance and faith and a lifelong commitment to Jesus Christ, loving, obeying and serving him out of love, rather than a slavish obedience (impossible) in order to gain merit with God (impossible).
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:7 KJV
Reform Church Again wrote: John It is an interesting point (from Greek perspective) and to tell you the truth I hadn't noticed it before. Perhaps Mike would like to comment on this too. Here goes.... Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the *GIFT* of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The *gift" Greek word here is "charisma" Defn = A divine gratuity. Deliverance from. A spiritual endowment. # Therfore definitely from God. ________ Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the *GIFT* of God:" The Greek word here is different = "do'ran" Def'n = A present, specifically a sacrifice. Therefore the Eph 2:8 *gift* appears to have been brought down to earth(?) Whereas "Salvation" is only from above from God. So, if we take the *gift* at Eph 2:8 as interpreted, an "offering" then it is something man can offer to God. Like "faith" Thus "Salvation" - being only from God, then would not fit the Eph 2:8 verse as well as faith does. How about that? From Greek perspective.
Reform Church Again wrote: 1. Oh well Mike, I guess we will never agree on that one. 2. Even if I don't accept salvation as being a gift, as one of the Elect I will automatically receive it. In fact it was initiated for the Elect before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4,5 refers. 3. Ah I told someone below that the Arminian always looks for a human response to make it all happen.
1) True, but I'd still like to sit and chat about it over coffee(or tea) one day.
2) I'm glad you are willing to receive good gifts, even if you believe one doesn't have to accept a gift in order to receive it.
3) Now that's not nice, calling me Arminian. Arminians will have nothing to do with me. That eternal security thing, you know. I feel so alone. Snicker.
It's also not nice to take my comment on 1 Peter 1:5, and make it appear as a comment on Ephesians 2:8. I will choose to believe it a mistake. Isn't free will a wonderful thing?
About 1 Peter 1:5 which "faith" is not speaking of the faith that leads to salvation, thus does not fit the description to "make it all happen" Again see v7.
Reform Church Again wrote: John Like when you read the Bible - try to stay within context!! After all χαρισμα and δωρον are different words in the original and carry different ultimate messages. 'ave a nice weekend.
Thank you, sir. And you too!
Now when is a gift not a gift?
Sure they are different greek words, but you see I don't need to read a greek Bible, coz I have an accurate translation into English.
Howbeit, if you should care to instruct this little turnip as to how they differ, I am all ears. (no funny comments, please.)
Notwithstanding, I expect in reality that you do actually believe that salvation is a gift and that you believe that faith is a gift, and that Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to faith which is a gift through which we receive the gift of eternal life.
Ah Jim, let's get it straighter. I can see how easy it is to make money (filthy lucre) from changing a few words hither and thither:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Romans 8:29-31 KJV
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians 1:4-6 KJV
Are you getting the 2010 edition NASB? Honestly Jim, you must have dollars to burn. But it's your stewardship, and I wouldn't dream of interfering with your responsibilities.
Ah, John UK, the people of the 19th century never heard of the nonsense of [URL=http://www.raptureme.com/rr-kjvo.html]]]King James Onlyism[/URL], while the Catholiclite Bible, the AV would be dispense with in the 20th century. There were still people who shifted through God's Word in the past to find that,
Romans 8 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Ephesians 1 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. ---[URL=http://www.lockman.org/nasb/nasbcmp.php]]]NASB[/URL]
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8100711751]]]Election in God's Plan of Salvation[/URL]
Alan H wrote: "It was not, however, the homage of his admiration alone that Calvin gave to the Scriptures. He gave to them the homage of his faith and obedience. In them he heard the very words of God, as if they were pronounced by his very lips........... Quoted from: [URL=http://www.newhopefairfax.org/files/Warfield%20on%20Calvin%20and%20the%20Bible.pdf]]]"CALVIN AND THE BIBLE" By Benjamin B. Warfield[/URL]
This is a good quote from Warfield, Alan H, and it illustrates Frenchie's view of Holy Scripture.
Those were the days, eh? When men believed God, and would have no truck with heretics like Westcott and Hort, who caused, and still cause, people to doubt that the Bible IS (not contains)the very words of God.
Those who are blessed by the biblical doctrines of free and sovereign grace, and appreciate good commentators like Frenchie, and even better ones like Spurgeon, need to heed the insights of these men, and take the name of Christian, rather than taking to themselves the name of mere men who, though mightily used by God, and should be held in respect like them of Hebrews 11, are nevertheless still men, converted sinners who, but for the grace of God, would today be languishing in hell like all of us should by rights.
"It was not, however, the homage of his admiration alone that Calvin gave to the Scriptures. He gave to them the homage of his faith and obedience. In them he heard the very words of God, as if they were pronounced by his very lips. And to these words he bent his ear, the Spirit in him bearing witness with his spirit that they are the words of God. â€śLet it be considered, then,â€ť he says, â€śan undeniable truth, that they who have been inwardly taught of the Spirit, feel an entire acquiescence in the Scripture, and that it is self-authenticated carrying with it its own evidence . . . equal to that of an intuitive perception of God himself in it.â€ť What made him so greatâ€”as an expositor, a theologian, a prince in Godâ€™s house, in the hearts of men, and, above all these, in his own heart (for greater is he that rules his spirit than he who captures a city) was that he made these Scriptures the guide of his thought and life, and brought all his activities of mind and speech and hand into subjection to their teaching."
Quoted from: [URL=http://www.newhopefairfax.org/files/Warfield%20on%20Calvin%20and%20the%20Bible.pdf]]]"CALVIN AND THE BIBLE" By Benjamin B. Warfield[/URL]