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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | Fridays | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  10/19/2017
TUESDAY, JUN 30, 2009  |  364 comments  |  5 commentaries
Survey: Churches Losing Youths Long Before College
The Bible calls the Church "the Body of Christ." Today, that body is bleeding profusely, says a Christian author and sought-out speaker.

"The next generation of believers is draining from the churches, and it causes me great personal and professional concern," said Ken Ham, founder and president of Answers in Genesis and a Young Earth creationist.

Delving deeper into some of the reasons for the exodus, the research group found that nearly 40 percent of the surveyed twentysomethings first had doubts about the Bible in middle school. Another 43.7 percent said they first doubted that all of the accounts and stories in the Bible are true during their high school years. Only around 10 percent said they first became doubtful about the Bible accounts during college. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 364 user comment(s)
News Item3/14/15 2:59 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
One might ask which churches? The liberal ones? The ones that mix politics with Christianity? Just because youths and others go to a church, doesn't make them the body of Christ. The only question that can be asked was the Gospel presented often enough, which means almost all the time?

2 Corinthians 2
14 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. ---ESV

If they are of the Elect they'll stay, if not, not.

Oh, this always needs to be pointed out, The Roman Road.

364

News Item7/15/09 2:28 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
ZxxZ wrote:
Because having sovereign power over nothing - is not having power over anything. Exit sovereignty.
I give up!! Do you have problems comprehending plain English, or just using it?

No one is denying Sovereignty! What I am challenging is the notion that for God to be Sovereign over something he must exert his own executive power without the use of means. That is the plain and ridiculous notion espoused by you calvinists!

363

News Item7/15/09 2:19 PM
ZxxZ  Find all comments by ZxxZ
Quote
"""In an even more alarming finding, attending Sunday school proved to be of no help in strengthening a young person's faith. In fact, the survey revealed that Sunday school is actually more likely to be detrimental to the spiritual and moral health of children."""

The obvious solution is to have the children go to REAL churches and not the religious brothels like Anglican, Episcopalian, social gospel spinners, sing song houses, charismatic hand wavers, pentecostal screamers, and all the other Liberal shysters on the main street of modern secularcompromisesville.

Computer language speaks of "garbage in - garbage out" - Adapt this to teaching human offspring - And you get "garbage in - garbage out."

Biblicist wrote:
Why does God use Angels to carry out his will? Why does he use preachers to take the gospel to sinners? Why does he use means at all? Does it lessen his Sovereignty to use means?
Because having sovereign power over nothing - is not having power over anything. Exit sovereignty.
362

News Item7/15/09 12:07 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Eddy Fying wrote:
Take for example the term "sovereignty" Many in the churches display a lack of understanding here too.
OR
Is it because proper definition of it would upset their pet doctrines on the amazing saving power of sinners?
EG.

Perhaps he has not grasped that the Queen is mortal. Education??
Sovereignty of GOD is actually something quite different from a mortal, Biblicist.

OK smart guy. Why does God use Angels to carry out his will? Why does he use preachers to take the gospel to sinners? Why does he use means at all? Does it lessen his Sovereignty to use means?

Even in the process of salvation he addresses the person's intellect. Through preaching, and the blessings of the Holy Spirit he moves the heart and brings a person under conviction, so that that person comes voluntarily in faith to submit to Christ!

But you must have God executing all this personally because otherwise in your scheme of things God is not glorified, the creature is.

As I said earlier, you have light that enables you to see things which are not there in the Bible. So congratulations. You are a very special person indeed! Happy?

361

News Item7/15/09 9:45 AM
Eddy Fying  Find all comments by Eddy Fying
"43.7 percent said they first doubted that all of the accounts and stories in the Bible are true during their high school years"

Why must we be subjected to this kind of peurile statistic in society today? If they were to conduct one on how many young adults understood quantum physics, they would be rebuked for it.
But the youth must understand Scripture without genuine teaching of it.

Thus education is lacking here not the knowledge or committment of the young.

But even the church can display a vivid lack in this area.

Take for example the term "sovereignty" Many in the churches display a lack of understanding here too.
OR
Is it because proper definition of it would upset their pet doctrines on the amazing saving power of sinners?

EG.

Biblicist wrote:
Does the queen of England control and determine your every thought, motive
Perhaps he has not grasped that the Queen is mortal. Education??
Sovereignty of GOD is actually something quite different from a mortal, Biblicist.

Psa 93:1 "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting"

360

News Item7/14/09 11:19 PM
Moderator Alpha  Protected NameFind all comments by Moderator Alpha
Just in case anyone has forgotten the topic of this news item....

Survey: Churches Losing Youths Long Before College

359

News Item7/14/09 9:13 PM
Hidemi Williges | san francisco, ca  Contact via emailFind all comments by Hidemi  Williges
Biblicist wrote:
then again we cannot do anything to change our status if we happen to be non-elect, nor can we fall in with your understanding of the Bible when you cannot even give a clear scripture exposition in support of your tenets. You are so busy proof texting that we are left wondering whether you ever read the Bible in a connected fashion.
Ho Hum.....
It also says that sinners have no need to get saved since they are damned anyway.
358

News Item7/14/09 7:57 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Mike wrote:
God is indeed sovereign, lad. It just doesn't mean what you think it does.
Mike

Tell me, why is the title of "sovereign" of more significance to the calvinists' than the term God?

Is being a king somehow more important than being God? Or do they imagine that God can be God and not exercise His reign over his creation?

___________________________________

John UK

You live under a monarchy. Does the queen of England control and determine your every thought, motive, movement etc? If not does it make her any less the queen of England?

357

News Item7/14/09 7:34 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Presbyfacts wrote:
God made the man and the ox - different!
* God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11
* God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30
* God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12
* God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35
* God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16
* God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6
* God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29
* God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27
* God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20
God is indeed sovereign, lad. It just doesn't mean what you think it does.
356

News Item7/14/09 7:06 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Presbyfacts wrote:
God made the man and the ox - different!
And according to calvinists "sovereignty" means that we are all fated to do exactly as God has determined? We are like toys on a stage that the child can do with as he will? We have no determining volition, no value, no significance etc. God cannot in any sense be said to love sinners, except those fortunates who are elected for reasons known only to God.

You calvinist may talk a great deal about God's glory, but all we can see is you glorying in Calvin and your calvinism and how special you all are, because you are the elect and have light that no other group possesses.

Tough on all the rest of us that have no good news, eh? But then again we cannot do anything to change our status if we happen to be non-elect, nor can we fall in with your understanding of the Bible when you cannot even give a clear scripture exposition in support of your tenets. You are so busy proof texting that we are left wondering whether you ever read the Bible in a connected fashion.

Ho Hum.....

355

News Item7/14/09 5:16 PM
Presbyfacts  Find all comments by Presbyfacts
Mike wrote:
Remember he limits God's sovereignty by determining what God will do with it. Thus the either-or scenario. To our friend, if God is sovereign, man must be an ox.
God made the man and the ox - different!

* God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11

* God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30

* God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12

* God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35

* God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16

* God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6

* God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29

* God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27

* God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20

354

News Item7/14/09 4:31 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Mike wrote:
Remember he limits God's sovereignty by determining what God will do with it. Thus the either-or scenario. To our friend, if God is sovereign, man must be an ox.
Even an ox has a will! But I guess the retort will be this too is predetermined !
353

News Item7/14/09 4:25 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Biblicist wrote:
Huh?
Can anyone translate this please?
Is anyone else getting tired of this guy's shoot and run tactics?
This is no meaningful dialogue. It's a waste of time!
Remember he limits God's sovereignty by determining what God will do with it. Thus the either-or scenario. To our friend, if God is sovereign, man must be an ox.
352

News Item7/14/09 4:19 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Presbyfacts wrote:
= Not a decision! Because of sin it is a state of being, requiring divine action first. 1Cor 2:14
There you are you see. As plain as the nose on your face - Arminian type defence as experienced at Dordt.
Told you there is NO third way.
Only Two ways.
God is either ALL Sovereign
OR
Man is given some kind of access by some "doctrinal" means or other.
Huh?

Can anyone translate this drivel please?

Is anyone else getting tired of this guy's shoot and run tactics?

This is no meaningful dialogue. It's a waste of time!

Hey PF, thanks for participating BUT if you have more facts, why don't you keep them to yourself. I for one would be more edified by your silence.

351

News Item7/14/09 3:08 PM
Presbyfacts  Find all comments by Presbyfacts
Hidemi Williges wrote:
You mean these are calvinist doctrine.
= Yes.
Mike wrote:
Atonement is effectual for those who believe
= As usual mike we disagree at the edges. You seem to have given man the edge here instead of Sovereignty.
Biblicist wrote:
Is his hatred and rejection of God not a decision? Or are you saying there is nothing spiritual about this? How do you define "spiritual"
= Not a decision! Because of sin it is a state of being, requiring divine action first. 1Cor 2:14

There you are you see. As plain as the nose on your face - Arminian type defence as experienced at Dordt.

Told you there is NO third way.

Only Two ways.
God is either ALL Sovereign
OR
Man is given some kind of access by some "doctrinal" means or other.
__________________

John UK wrote:
#1 Man in his natural state prefers his sin, and does not desire to be holy. This is why he shall be damned.
John
You are far too nice to these sinners.
But You're too close for comfort.
I guess I will just have to call you Calvinist.
You only differed in your approach which was not as "harsh" as mine.

ps I did it that way for the reaction.

Thanks All.

350

News Item7/14/09 10:44 AM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Presbyfacts wrote:
2] Unconditional Election - God perceives nothing in all mortals worthy of saving.
Addenda to my previous on this point.

Why would God command us to love others as we love ourselves? To place a value on them equal to that we place on ourselves? Do you suppose that God is like the Pharisees and commands men to do something that he cannot or will not do Himself? And if he so commands, does that not mean that he places value upon them?

Presbyfacts wrote:
5] Perseverence - God brings the elect sinner to heaven from start to finish.?
The doctrine is called "perseverence" viz. something that man does!! You're so silly! That is not to cut God out, but the emphasis in the word is on something man does!

John UK wrote:
#5 God preserves his chosen, ...
John, why do you suppose that the doctrine is entitled "perseverance" instead of "preservation" as you termed it? Surely the calvinists must have had an off day, leaving the idea of human effort in a part of the salvation process and thereby risking that God may not get all the glory!
349

News Item7/14/09 10:44 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Presbyfacts wrote:
You are either one or the other there is no other way.
As for those who reject this and call themselves Bible only without theology - There is no such reality.
Eventually we observe sufficient proof in there posts to categorise them...
You really love slotting people into your man-made box, Presbyfacts?

The "biblical doctrines of free and sovereign grace" are as follows. Observe, and learn:

#1 Man in his natural state prefers his sin, and does not desire to be holy. This is why he shall be damned.

#2 God's choice in saving sinners is not affected by their life or character. For all have sinned.

#3 Christ has paid a price sufficient for the sins of the world, but the application is particular.

#4 God lovingly draws his chosen until they bend the knee to Christ, believe, and are saved.

#5 God preserves his chosen, by continually applying grace. Those occasions when grace is withdrawn are to sanctify further, and increase trust and dependency upon the Lord.

This my confession is neither arminius nor frenchie, but what I perceive to be the biblical pattern throughout the scriptures.

I suppose you even could pigeonhole me, although you said 'tis one or the other.

348

News Item7/14/09 10:24 AM
Hidemi Williges | san francisco, ca  Contact via emailFind all comments by Hidemi  Williges
Biblicist,

Good rebuttal.

347

News Item7/14/09 10:19 AM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Presbyfacts wrote:
1] Total Depravity - Man in his natural estate and cannot make any spiritual decision towards God.
Is his hatred and rejection of God not a decision? Or are you saying there is nothing spiritual about this? How do you define "spiritual"?

Presbyfacts wrote:
2] Unconditional Election - God perceives nothing in all mortals worthy of saving.
If that is the case, then why bother making man in the image of God and why go to the lengths which he did in order to save men?

Presbyfacts wrote:
3] Limited Atonement - Jesus died only for the elect of God chosen before the world began.
And that is why the Gospel comes to "all men" "everywhere" (Acts 17:30) with the command to repent ?

Presbyfacts wrote:
4] Irresistible Grace - God alone draws people to Christ. There is nothing in the mortal to prevent this and mans decision about it, either way, is irrelevant.
You were an automaton in your salvation?! What do you suppose "faith" is if not something exercised by men? And why is salvation **"by faith"** through grace?

Out of space.

346

News Item7/14/09 10:02 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Presbyfacts wrote:
---
Eventually we observe sufficient proof in there posts to categorise them.
1] Total Depravity - Man in his natural estate and cannot make any spiritual decision towards God.
2] Unconditional Election - God perceives nothing in all mortals worthy of saving.
3] Limited Atonement - Jesus died only for the elect of God chosen before the world began.
4] Irresistible Grace - God alone draws people to Christ. There is nothing in the mortal to prevent this and mans decision about it, either way, is irrelevant.
5] Perseverence - God brings the elect sinner to heaven from start to finish.
These are Bible doctrines. All five are indicative of how God saves His elect in Christ. A change to any of the above brings an Arminian (free will) solution.
Thus there is no third way.
1] Nor away from him in that case, for that is a spiritual decision as well.

2] Your insight into God's perception must be a gift. Or, perhaps God loves men more than you do.

3] Atonement is effectual for those who believe.

4] Then man has no responsibility for it either way, it's irrelevant.

5] Once saved, always saved. No argument here. But what do they that already *have* eternal life persevere about? Trying to get to heaven by works?

345
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