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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  10/19/2019
MONDAY, APR 13, 2009  |  245 comments
Canadians divided over creation and evolution theories: poll
The chicken-or-the-egg question of human existence is looking more and more like a philosophical omelette, with a new poll revealing a jumble of Christian beliefs when it comes to creation and evolution.

The survey conducted for Canwest News Service and Global National for Easter, found 30 per cent of Canadians who believe in God also believe in evolution. Another 23 per cent of believers say they agree with ideas put forth by both creationists and evolutionists.

“As you get older, you become more accepting of possibilities,” says John Wright, senior vice-president of Toronto-based pollster Ipsos Reid. “There are now people who are prepared to accept both sides and don’t see them as necessarily being mutually exclusive.” ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.montrealgazette.com

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 245 user comment(s)
News Item4/25/09 8:13 AM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Alan H wrote:
FYI, DJC49, regarding our recent argument over Genesis chapter 5. When you posted that quote by John Calvin in your 4/21/09 10:18 PM post I read it very soon after it was posted. I was still ready to immediately try to defend my own opinion in spite of what Calvin had asserted ... Anyway, throughout the next day I contemplated the situation and realized that while I agreed with Calvin's conclusions, I had still been willing the night before to deny them in order to continue to defend my own weak theory. Needless to say, I was very convicted by this wrong attitude and I determined that I had to either deny my viewpoint or forsake that which I knew to be the truth.

I tell you this as a warning to ALL. I am sure this sort of thing happens all the time, i.e. there are many who are willing to forsake the truth for the sake of winning or rather hoping to win a bad argument.

I really think that to embrace the truth at any cost, even self-denial, is the real victory, don't you?

BTW, pardon my ignorance, but what is PAX?

"Pax" is Latin meaning "peace."

And yes, YOU have won a REAL victory, *Alan H* -- you've gained deeper knowledge of Christ through practicing & learning humility by your acquiescence to truth at the expense of "self." PAX!

245

News Item4/24/09 10:17 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Protected NameFind all comments by Alan H
DJC49 wrote:
One can even go so far as to fall into grievous error if he's not careful -- KJV or no KJV.

PAX

FYI, DJC49, regarding our recent argument over Genesis chapter 5. When you posted that quote by John Calvin in your 4/21/09 10:18 PM post I read it very soon after it was posted. I was still ready to immediately try to defend my own opinion in spite of what Calvin had asserted. As it was, I was just too tired and upset and I needed to get to bed. I get up at 3:30 am and that comes awful early. Anyway, throughout the next day I contemplated the situation and realized that while I agreed with Calvin's conclusions, I had still been willing the night before to deny them in order to continue to defend my own weak theory. Needless to say, I was very convicted by this wrong attitude and I determined that I had to either deny my viewpoint or forsake that which I knew to be the truth.

I tell you this as a warning to ALL. I am sure this sort of thing happens all the time, i.e. there are many who are willing to forsake the truth for the sake of winning or rather hoping to win a bad argument.

I really think that to embrace the truth at any cost, even self-denial, is the real victory, don't you?

BTW, pardon my ignorance, but what is PAX?

244

News Item4/22/09 9:17 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Alan H wrote:
DJC49,
I don't suppose the Dispensationalists, of which I am not one, would be too happy with John Calvin mentioning "the church" in Genesis. Didn't Calvin know the church started in the book of Acts?

I took a day to think about this matter and have come to the conclusion that I am very inclined to agree with John Calvin's assessment. Perhaps my attitude toward you kept me from receiving it at your hand. My apologies

That's quite all right, *Alan H*, quite all right.

A lot of times with us sinful saints, it's the messenger rather than the message with which we really contend. And communicating over this silent, sightless "text-only" medium poses its own problems.

Anyway ...

I'm guessing that we had a minor "falling out" (of sorts) some time ago when the KJV-ONLY wars were raging on these boards. You, being a staunch advocate of the KJV, took issue with me back then and it got a wee-bit hairy. And I can be much too acerbic and tactless at times.

But I think there's even another lesson to be learned here: even with a "perfect" translation of the Bible in one's hands, a believer can STILL come up with questionable conclusions. One can even go so far as to fall into grievous error if he's not careful -- KJV or no KJV.

PAX

243

News Item4/22/09 8:25 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Protected NameFind all comments by Alan H
DJC49 wrote:
You are ASSUMING and SPECULATING that each son was a "firstborn" because he was mentioned whereas his siblings were not.

Here's what John Calvin had to say on the subject. His Commentary might help:

"Concerning the fathers whom Moses has hitherto enumerated, it is NOT easy to conjecture whether each of them was the FIRST BORN of his family or not; for he [Moses] only wished to follow the continued succession of the Church. But God, to prevent men from being elated by a vain confidence in the flesh, FREQUENTLY CHOOSES FOR HIMSELF THOSE WHO ARE POSTERIOR IN THE ORDER OF NATURE. I am, therefore, uncertain whether Moses has recorded the catalogue of those whom God preferred to others; OR of those who, by right of primogeniture, held the chief rank among their brethren; I am also uncertain how many sons each had."

DJC49,

I don't suppose the Dispensationalists, of which I am not one, would be too happy with John Calvin mentioning "the church" in Genesis. Didn't Calvin know the church started in the book of Acts?

I took a day to think about this matter and have come to the conclusion that I am very inclined to agree with John Calvin's assessment. Perhaps my attitude toward you kept me from receiving it at your hand. My apologies

242

News Item4/22/09 4:20 AM
Farmer Joe  Find all comments by Farmer Joe
Mike wrote:
The article reads:
"Vegetables which are mentioned in the Bible include herbs of all kinds, mandrakes (a narcotic, short stemmed solanaceous herb, Mandragora officinarum, with a fleshy root), cucumbers, melons, gourds, beans, and corn."
2 problems. Corn isn't a vegetable, and its existence 2000 years ago in the mideast is doubtful.
According to this article Mike not everybody in New York agrees with you.
[URL=http://empirezone.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/corn-vegetable-fruit-or-grain/]]]Corn - Vege fruit or grain?[/URL]
241

News Item4/21/09 10:18 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Alan H wrote:
DJC49,
I used the word "FIRST" simply because the order of the verse indicated that the son named was born prior to the other "sons and daughters" mentioned afterward. I repeat: "I am only following the order as recorded in the Scripture. I didn't know that wasn't allowed."
You are ASSUMING and SPECULATING that each son was a "firstborn" because he was mentioned whereas his siblings were not. The ORDER indicates nothing! There is NO guarantee whatsoever that the fathers/sons mentioned in Gen 5 were FIRSTBORNS because of the order of mention.

Here's what John Calvin had to say on the subject. His Commentary might help:

"Concerning the fathers whom Moses has hitherto enumerated, it is NOT easy to conjecture whether each of them was the FIRST BORN of his family or not; for he [Moses] only wished to follow the continued succession of the Church. But God, to prevent men from being elated by a vain confidence in the flesh, FREQUENTLY CHOOSES FOR HIMSELF THOSE WHO ARE POSTERIOR IN THE ORDER OF NATURE. I am, therefore, uncertain whether Moses has recorded the catalogue of those whom God preferred to others; OR of those who, by right of primogeniture, held the chief rank among their brethren; I am also uncertain how many sons each had."

240

News Item4/21/09 9:51 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Protected NameFind all comments by Alan H
DJC49,

I used the word "FIRST" simply because the order of the verse indicated that the son named was born prior to the other "sons and daughters" mentioned afterward. I repeat: "I am only following the order as recorded in the Scripture. I didn't know that wasn't allowed."

Can you prove that these sons, which are named, were not the firstborn sons? Any of them (with the exception of Seth)?

BTW, I know and agree with you that they are all of the lineage of Jesus Christ, the Messiah; they were all men of faith, which may or may not be so of those who were born after them, i.e. brothers & sisters.

My only point was that God is the giver of life and I personally believe He limited the number of births to some degree. I don't think that those men who lived prior to the flood produced children indiscriminately, though they certainly had many children. The age of the fathers at the time those "first" births, which I believe to be "first," seemed to indicate that they did not have children very often, when they certainly might have (or they even may have, if you like). The point I was trying to make in the first place has been totally lost in your argument...

BTW, isn't it past your bedtime? I am three hours later here.

239

News Item4/21/09 8:52 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Alan H wrote:
DJC49, Why did I know you were going to rake me over the coals for pointing out the length of time between the fathers birth and the birth of their first born sons (saving in the case of Seth, he was Adam's third Son)? (4/20/09 11:05 PM)
The whole point of my post concerning the "FIRST"-born sons went right over your head, didn't it.

You wrote:
Seth's FIRST son, Enos, when Seth was 105.
Enos' FIRST son, Cainan, when Enos was 90.
Cainan's FIRST son, when Mahalaleel, Cainan was 70.
Mahalaleel's FIRST son, Jared, when Mahalaleel was 65.
Jared's FIRST son, Enoch, when Jared was 162.
Enoch's FIRST son, Methuselah, when Enoch was 65.
Methuselah's FIRST son, Lamech, when Methuselah was 187.
Lamech's FIRST son, Noah, when Lamech was 182.
___

*Alan H* --

You do NOT KNOW with certainty that Enos was Seth's FIRST son; that Cainan was Enos' FIRST son; that Mahalaleel was Cainan's FIRST son and etc., etc.
Do you!
NO, you don't!
You don't because the word "FIRST" is NOT FOUND in the text -- YOU inserted the word "FIRST" into the Biblical text so that YOU could make whatever assumption you needed to make! IOW, YOU did your share of ***SPECULATING*** ... something which YOU chastised me for doing in SEVERAL of your posts!

Pot / Kettle

238

News Item4/21/09 8:16 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Protected NameFind all comments by Alan H
DJC49 wrote:
*Alan H* --
what does *Alan H* do? Why, he walks right through that "Forbidden Door of Speculation" by assuming what was NOT written in Scripture! Ha!

We just do NOT know whether all the fathers mentioned in Gen 5 were the FIRST son born of his family or not! Perhaps God chose a YOUNGER son through whose bloodline The Christ would come...

DJC49, Why did I know you were going to rake me over the coals for pointing out the length of time between the fathers birth and the birth of their first born sons (saving in the case of Seth, he was Adam's third Son)? (4/20/09 11:05 PM) In every case after "the son" is named it says, "he (the father) begat sons and daughters." I am only following the order as recorded in the Scripture. I didn't know that wasn't allowed.

Ge 5:4 "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:..."

Ge 5:7 "And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:..."

Ge 5:10 "And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:..."

Ge 5:13 "And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:..."

Etc.

237

News Item4/21/09 5:33 PM
Jessica Dawson | Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by Jessica Dawson
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

If Jesus can do nothing of himself then neither can I!

236

News Item4/21/09 5:07 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
DJC49 wrote:
4 2
Took me a while to understand the cryptic comment DJ T 4 2 is good, but make mine a redbush and soy milk. Finally managed to complete the post, but I lost one in cyberland.
235

News Item4/21/09 5:04 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Scholium wrote:
Have a read of this one John, perhaps it may cheer you up on vegietheology.....
[URL=http://www.plantanswers.com/bible.htm]]]Vegetables in the Bible[/URL]
The article reads:
"Vegetables which are mentioned in the Bible include herbs of all kinds, mandrakes (a narcotic, short stemmed solanaceous herb, Mandragora officinarum, with a fleshy root), cucumbers, melons, gourds, beans, and corn."

2 problems. Corn isn't a vegetable, and its existence 2000 years ago in the mideast is doubtful.

234

News Item4/21/09 4:19 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Scholium wrote:
Have a read of this one John, perhaps it may cheer you up on vegietheology.....
[URL=http://www.plantanswers.com/bible.htm]]]Vegetables in the Bible[/URL]
THANKS bro, that is most wonderful website, full of interesting things about veggies in the Bible. Wa Hey, my heart is filled with joy and carrot juice. All fuelled up and rarin to go!

System is goin slow tonight....

233

News Item4/21/09 2:50 PM
Scholium  Find all comments by Scholium
John UK wrote:
Quite correct!
Just making sure you live up to your infamous moniker, bro. Good for you.
Now here's another tester for you: why are there no carrots or turnips found in the Bible anywhere? Have they changed their names or what?
Have a read of this one John, perhaps it may cheer you up on vegietheology.....

[URL=http://www.plantanswers.com/bible.htm]]]Vegetables in the Bible[/URL]

232

News Item4/21/09 1:26 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Scholium wrote:
The first chapter of Isaiah is certainly NOT about the Remnant. It is about the quote "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward." V4.
Considering the "Daughter of Zion" - ie Jerusalem is reduced to a cottage/lodge size - this is NOT good news for them. This in effect predicts their destruction. The first chapters of Isaiah are prophecies of condemnation.
Quite correct!

Just making sure you live up to your infamous moniker, bro. Good for you.

Now here's another tester for you: why are there no carrots or turnips found in the Bible anywhere? Have they changed their names or what?

231

News Item4/21/09 11:59 AM
Scholium  Find all comments by Scholium
John UK wrote:
Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the DAUGHTER of ZION is left as a COTTAGE in a VINEYARD, as a LODGE in a GARDEN of CUCUMBERS, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isaiah 1:7-9 KJV
Amazing how the remnant are found amongst the grapes and cucumbers, eh? Anyhow, this isn't getting the work done, so tarra everyone, and see ya later.
The first chapter of Isaiah is certainly NOT about the Remnant. It is about the quote "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward." V4.

Considering the "Daughter of Zion" - ie Jerusalem is reduced to a cottage/lodge size - this is NOT good news for them. This in effect predicts their destruction. The first chapters of Isaiah are prophecies of condemnation.

230

News Item4/21/09 10:40 AM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Alan H wrote:
Seth's FIRST son,... Enos' FIRST son,... Cainan's FIRST son,... ETC.
*Alan H* --
After chastising me on several occasions about MY:
· opening a very wide door to mere speculation
· treating those things which God has chosen NOT to reveal
· foolishly presuming to go beyond the truth, thinking myself wise
· allowing errors to creep into the church by way of speculation
· speculating at the expense of revealed truth being criminal

AND ... after having elsewhere stated that YOU:
· were not interested in smoke (conjectures)
· prefer to go by what God HAS or HAS NOT said
· limit yourself to what is written, NOT WHAT IS ASSUMED, because you think we ought to do that, whether called "Fundies" or not ...

what does *Alan H* do? Why, he walks right through that "Forbidden Door of Speculation" by assuming what was NOT written in Scripture! Ha!

We just do NOT know whether all the fathers mentioned in Gen 5 were the FIRST son born of his family or not! Perhaps God chose a YOUNGER son through whose bloodline The Christ would come rather than working strictly through the right of primogeniture (as seen elsewhere in Scripture, viz., Esau/JACOB; Reuben/JUDAH; Eliab/DAVID). Also, Manasseh/EPHRAIM show that sometimes the blessings were switched!

229

News Item4/21/09 9:58 AM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Rudi wrote:
I ask myself, when I pray for a sick person and that person is not healed even though Jesus promises that if we ask anything in His Name it will be done !
If my faith in these type of promises is not real, how can I be sure that my faith in His saving grace is real !
The faith of the believer is not based upon his apparent ability to leverage God's grace through his own spiritural effort. The believer is saved because he has laid his trust in the historical objective finished work in the death of Christ on the cross and believes that he has been acquitted of his sin by the demonstration of the resurrection. Faith is not something that the believer creates "ex nilo". Faith is something that God creates from dead bones and inert rock.

Here is a question for all of you faith based healing sects. If it be God's will for people to be healed of their physical ailments, why does He then appear to not heal any amputees. Why does he only cure diseases and ailments that are not able to be verified by the human eye?

[URL=http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm]]]A question for Faith Based Healers[/URL]

Rudi, does your theology have an answer to this atheistic charge?

228

News Item4/21/09 9:52 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the DAUGHTER of ZION is left as a COTTAGE in a VINEYARD, as a LODGE in a GARDEN of CUCUMBERS, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isaiah 1:7-9 KJV

Amazing how the remnant are found amongst the grapes and cucumbers, eh? Anyhow, this isn't getting the work done, so tarra everyone, and see ya later.

227

News Item4/21/09 9:39 AM
Scholium  Find all comments by Scholium
John UK wrote:
If a man does NOT RESPOND in FAITH when he hears the gospel, HE WILL NOT BE SAVED. And if a man does NOT REPENT when he hears the gospel, HE WILL NOT BE SAVED. It's that simple. Try looking at it from mans' angle once in a while, lest you become a follower of HYPERMAN!! And you wouldn't want that, surely?
And notice I didn't mention election in the above, nor the REASON why a man believes or repents. That is a separate issue.
John if you and Rudi want to do it by the RC-Arminian method then I can only leave you to your OWN devices.

BUT Faith is the GIFT of God wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:8.

Nothing to do with the human faculties of natural sinners.

226
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