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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  9/19/2019
THURSDAY, APR 2, 2009  |  55 comments
Poll: U.S. Catholics lean left on social issues
American Catholics are more liberal than the general population on social issues like divorce and homosexuality, despite the Catholic Church's longstanding conservatism on both issues, according to a new survey.

Catholics are more likely than non-Catholics to say that homosexual relations, divorce, and heterosexual sex outside wedlock are morally acceptable, according to an analysis by Gallup pollsters released on Monday.


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.usatoday.com

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 55 user comment(s)
News Item4/5/09 5:56 PM
itsaboutheremnant | wales  Find all comments by itsaboutheremnant
yes thats why i am a 'calvinist' for want of a better phrase, i just dont see how in the world anyone can come to orthodoxy and the at least partial understanding of the mysterious things of the word unless it is supernaturally imparted smce the wisdom of god is so different from the natural man
55

News Item4/5/09 5:46 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
itsaboutheremnant wrote:
yes and what is also exiting is the way that the extent of truth is revealed IOW the timing. Now i cant think of anything that i have finally decided upon which i have changed my mind but i have to add i simply wont hold a position until i am 100% certain i will just delay.
And how wonderful it is to get that 100% assurance; you've got it for life, bro.
54

News Item4/5/09 5:15 PM
itsaboutheremnant | wales  Find all comments by itsaboutheremnant
John UK wrote:
the Lord will reveal truth in due time, and it is such a delight to taste such enabling of the Lord, and humbling too.
Also I know it is true that I have thought I had got something, only to have to reverse and think again. But other things are clear and definite, praise God.
p.s. I've not heard Joel Beeke yet, but apparently he has sermons here, so if want a taster of his ministry before considering Aber, you could have a listen. I expect there will be many from Bangor church going.
yes and what is also exiting is the way that the extent of truth is revealed IOW the timing. Now i cant think of anything that i have finally decided upon which i have changed my mind but i have to add i simply wont hold a position until i am 100% certain i will just delay

what i observe is that if the individual is willing to be taught and put aside wordly inclinations then truth is revealed, but if not, if they are not willing to take scripture and face value then the deeper things such as election and sovreignty will not be revealed i have noticed that even amongst apparently earnest students this is not revealed

Knowlege is a reward

53

News Item4/5/09 5:07 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
itsaboutheremnant wrote:
Amen indeed john, how often is it that you spend months meditating on a biblical issue almost every day and finally you get it, youve really got it and can use it theres no holes but its so simple in hindsight - its a measure of our blessed saviour that even tho our hearts are so stubborn and foolish He will persevere with us - quite amazing - LOve ? if only that was all we had to deal with - the pride of life and the lusts of the flesh are quite overpowering without grace
It is so so true about truth, Charles. I know now that so long as I have the word before my eyes and in my mind, the Lord will reveal truth in due time, and it is such a delight to taste such enabling of the Lord, and humbling too.

Also I know it is true that I have thought I had got something, only to have to reverse and think again. But other things are clear and definite, praise God.

p.s. I've not heard Joel Beeke yet, but apparently he has sermons here, so if want a taster of his ministry before considering Aber, you could have a listen. I expect there will be many from Bangor church going.

52

News Item4/5/09 4:56 PM
itsaboutheremnant | wales  Find all comments by itsaboutheremnant
Amen indeed john, how often is it that you spend months meditating on a biblical issue almost every day and finally you get it, youve really got it and can use it theres no holes but its so simple in hindsight - its a measure of our blessed saviour that even tho our hearts are so stubborn and foolish He will persevere with us - quite amazing - LOve ? if only that was all we had to deal with - the pride of life and the lusts of the flesh are quite overpowering without grace
51

News Item4/5/09 4:49 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
itsaboutheremnant wrote:
spot on again john it takes a lot of meditation to come to this and the assistance of the HS of course
its hard teaching but Jesus is quite clear - a man and woman must approach the issue of marriage with great caution and trepidation seeking Gods guidance......
Yes, it is actually far simpler than folks imagine. But our wretched human nature can, even after conversion, chase after that which God clearly forbids in his word. How we need to commit ourselves to God's word and his Lordship, and never listen to our flesh. Love can be a very powerful force, like the juicy apple in Eden.

Oh Bro Publican

You now have all my thoughts on the matter, but one more thing about your last post. I think the word 'privily' is very instructive concerning Joseph's desire for Mary's life, and avoiding the full weight of the law bearing down on her.

50

News Item4/5/09 4:45 PM
Publican | Northern Hemisphere  Contact via emailFind all comments by Publican
Would Joseph, 'being a just man' before the law, be transgressing that law, by not adhering to Deut 22?, or would he be 'permitted' to marry her?

The woman 'taken in adultery' was referred to Lev 20. Both of these offenses are punishable by death. It would seem that in the Jewish economy, the terms 'adultery' and 'fornication' could be virtually interchangeable.

By the way, John UK; forgive me for making you do all the work.

49

News Item4/5/09 4:30 PM
itsaboutheremnant | wales  Find all comments by itsaboutheremnant
spot on again john it takes a lot of meditation to come to this and the assistance of the HS of course

its hard teaching but Jesus is quite clear - a man and woman must approach the issue of marriage with great caution and trepidation seeking Gods guidance, unless of course like me you had no choice as it were thats not to say i was reluctant but the teaching is clear and I thank God for the blessings of marriage and how he converetd my wife it wouldnt have been good for me if he had not

of course as you have probably realised candlelit i wouldnt have got married at all ever if it wasnt in the word

48

News Item4/5/09 4:04 PM
Faithful Remnant  Find all comments by Faithful Remnant
In light of this, it is my obersvation that the RCC's doctrine of the infallibility of its popes and councils isn't an improvement over the doctrine of Scripture Alone.
47

News Item4/5/09 3:57 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Publican wrote:
Isn't the Matthean passage, in its context, referring to Deuteronomy 24?
Fornication is not specifically mentioned in the latter passage, where the woman who is put away is
'caused to commit adultery' as well as 'he who marries her'
This is why I say that the AV has got the translation correct: 'fornication' .... before marriage sex. Jewish betrothed couples were in the eyes of the law 'married' If there was sex between one of the betrothed and a third party, Jesus said that 'divorce' was permissible, if such fornication could be proved. Because the betrothal was a contract (i.e. marriage) then any subsequent sexual activity with a new 'marriage partner' would be called adultery, as Jesus said in Matthew 19:9.

It took me a long time and much meditation to come to these conclusions, which also fit the 'divorce' which Joseph was considering for Mary, who, being pregnant, and him thinking it was through fornication while 'betrothed (married) but before they were married (married), for which divorce he would have had the full weight of the law behind him. Thankfully the angel instructed him as to the truth.

46

News Item4/5/09 3:32 PM
Candle Lit  Find all comments by Candle Lit
itsaboutheremnant wrote:
hello candleit!
im begining to suspect that my new moniker is not the success i had hoped it would be ! i may have to go back to charles m i feel on the forum there is a certain customer resistance to it !
Im not a young man im afraid although not old at 46, i was with my wife for 23 yrs before we got married naturally i gave the whole issue a lot of thought
here is the audio link to the wedding which was a wonderful event - enjoy !
http://www.ebenezerbangor.org.uk/news.html
Hi, Charles,

I think *Charles m* is good for your moniker- *itsaboutheremnant* is a bit long.

Hmmmm. . .23 yrs... You don't make quick decisions, do you?

What's important is that both you and your wife are now walking with the Lord.

Thanks for the audio link of your wedding. The wedding of two believers is a beautiful picture of our relationship with the Lord. I'll have to listen at a later time.

45

News Item4/5/09 3:14 PM
itsaboutheremnant | wales  Find all comments by itsaboutheremnant
hello candleit you are very kind !

im begining to suspect that my new moniker is not the success i had hoped it would be ! i may have to go back to charles m i feel on the forum there is a certain customer resistance to it !

Im not a young man im afraid although not old at 46, i was with my wife for 23 yrs before we got married naturally i gave the whole issue a lot of thought and made me review my life and the mistakes i had made. not least having become a believer and my wife at the time was not and when i became a genesis creationist she thought i was mad !
even some christians said we were already married others said otherwise, i came to see that my relationship was part of the old me doing what i wanted but also that i owed a duty to my partner but should a believer marry a non believer ? all these and other many other issues. i learned that this part of my life was am obvious rebellion and repentance was required God would not grant me the blessings i desired if i was in rebellion and also that we were fornicators so we had to get married but she became a believer anyway !!!

here is the audio link to the wedding which was a wonderful event - enjoy !

http://www.ebenezerbangor.org.uk/news.html

44

News Item4/5/09 3:09 PM
Publican | Northern Hemisphere  Contact via emailFind all comments by Publican
Isn't the Matthean passage, in its context, referring to Deuteronomy 24?

Fornication is not specifically mentioned in the latter passage, where the woman who is put away is
'caused to commit adultery' as well as 'he who marries her'

In the 22nd of Deuteronomy, the death penalty is enforced (which, I guess could be considered a divorce), where fornication is spoken of. Perhaps the reason for the distinction between commandment and permission.

And again, (I'm not trying to be obstinate) I only see Jesus pronouncing on the woman put away for any cause 'other' than fornication, more directly answering the question of the Pharisees.

43

News Item4/5/09 2:58 PM
Candle Lit  Find all comments by Candle Lit
itsaboutheremnant wrote:
that is the only provision for divorce, fornication only not adultery or any other thing
Charles,

Sorry, but you introduced yourself as Charles first, and first impressions stick, so please do not dislike that I call you by your name of introduction.

Now, Charles, you are newly married. I assume that you are a young man. Young men are idealistic. That is both endearing and amusing when seen from a perspective that time, life, and experience gives one.

Dogmatically stating that there is only one provision for divorce is simple - easy - satisfying to one not weighing the real happenings of life. Life is just more complicated than "simple declaratives."

Now, for you, I would wish that all your days of marriage be filled with bliss - that, together, you and your bride of one, now, two months, if I count correctly, sail through the ups and downs of life, and never have to deal with the weighty issue of a divorce.

The fact is, many, if not most, deal with this issue, that you would simply brush away with a no-nonsense declarative.

I can only say, time will give you a different perspective.

42

News Item4/5/09 2:37 PM
itsaboutheremnant | wales  Find all comments by itsaboutheremnant
John UK wrote:
Wrong chapter bro, you need to have a look at Deuteronomy 22:13-21. This ties in with Matthew 19:9, which gives the only just cause for divorce; that is, a discovered fornication before the marriage was finalised. The Jews bethrothal was as binding as marriage itself, which is why a man could divorce before he got 'married'.
spot on there john, that is the only provision for divorce, fornication only not adultery or any other thing
41

News Item4/5/09 2:12 PM
Candle Lit  Find all comments by Candle Lit
John UK wrote:
look at Deuteronomy 22:13-21. This ties in with Matthew 19:9, which gives the only just cause for divorce; that is, a discovered fornication before the marriage was finalised. The Jews bethrothal was as binding as marriage itself, which is why a man could divorce before he got 'married'.
I think the whole understanding of divorce and Jesus' teaching on it is mostly misunderstood. From a historical perspective, men could put away their wives for 'anything' almost, such as burning his bread. You name it. He could say "I divorce you" - I think it was 3 x's - and that was it - she was divorced. Some couples were married ten, twenty, thirty times, between them. Marriage was treated very lightly, and women were the ones who typically suffered, the divorce being at the discretion of the husband.

So, I think that Jesus was elevating the status of marriage, and giving to the woman a security that she did not enjoy under the prevailing Jewish law.

Jesus said, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." Matt. 19:8

So, the emphasis that Jesus was making was to restore the original intent of the marriage relationship - one man and one woman. OOS

40

News Item4/5/09 1:19 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Publican wrote:
I do not find the specifics in the Deuteronomy 24 passage, John UK.
In the Matthean passage, I see no permission to put away a wife for fornication; only the issue for putting her away for any other cause.
Wrong chapter bro, you need to have a look at Deuteronomy 22:13-21. This ties in with Matthew 19:9, which gives the only just cause for divorce; that is, a discovered fornication before the marriage was finalised. The Jews bethrothal was as binding as marriage itself, which is why a man could divorce before he got 'married'.
39

News Item4/5/09 1:01 PM
Publican | Northern Hemisphere  Contact via emailFind all comments by Publican
I do not find the specifics in the Deuteronomy 24 passage, John UK.

In the Matthean passage, I see no permission to put away a wife for fornication; only the issue for putting her away for any other cause.

38

News Item4/5/09 12:49 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Publican wrote:
Sorry I'm so late on this.
How is 'divorce' permitted in the case of fornication,
if fornication is (sex before marriage)?
Where is this permission given?
There is an old testament permission for a man to divorce his bethrothed wife if there was evidence of fornication before the marriage. This was why Joseph was 'minded to put her (Mary) away privily' because under the law he could do that.

"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."
Matthew 19:9 KJV

The modern versions have trounced this verse because it doesn't make sense without understanding the old testament ruling.

37

News Item4/5/09 12:36 PM
Publican | Northern Hemisphere  Contact via emailFind all comments by Publican
Sorry I'm so late on this.

How is 'divorce' permitted in the case of fornication,
if fornication is (sex before marriage)?

Where is this permission given?

36
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