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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  8/21/2019
FRIDAY, MAR 20, 2009  |  65 comments
Vatican insiders declare the Pope a 'disaster'
The Holy See is struggling to contain international anger over the Pope's claim on his first official visit to Africa that Aids "cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems".

The Pope's remarks about condoms, and a recent furore over his lifting of the 20-year excommunication of a British bishop who has questioned the Holocaust, has left him looking isolated and out of touch, prompting calls for a radical shake-up of the way the Holy See delivers its message. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.telegraph.co.uk

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 65 user comment(s)
News Item4/30/09 2:35 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
DJC49, Christ is the head of the church, but that's it. I'm glad you didn't get distracted.
Hebrews 12
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.

[Scofield Note 1917]
[1] {church}

Church (true), Summary: The true church, composed of the whole number
of regenerate persons from Pentecost to the first resurrection
# 1Co 15:52
united together and to Christ by the baptism with the Holy
Spirit
# 1Co 12:12,13
is the body of Christ of which He is the Head
# Eph 1:22,23
As such, it is a holy temple for the habitation of God
through the Spirit
# Eph 2:21,22
is "one flesh" with Christ
# Eph 5:30,31
and espoused to Him as a chaste virgin to one husband
# 2Co 11:2-4

....
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=7605111043]]]Who and What is the Church?[/URL]

65

News Item4/26/09 10:40 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
*Whyso* --
I refuse to go off on a tangent with you concerning your point [1] about The Trinity being "a part of the Church." That's just NOT germane to the question at hand (ANGELS as MEMBERS of the Church). But I WILL say this much: It seems to me that you are trying to make the case that the Trinity, the elect angels, and the redeemed of men are ALL a part of The Church! Am I understanding you correctly? Is THAT where you stand? If so, then please guide me to the several Scriptures where it states as much.

The holy angels rejoice (see Luke 15:10) because they are INVOLVED with the Church (see Heb 1:14). Yet, they are NOT MEMBERS of the Church.

Some definitions of the Church:
“The Church consists of those who are partakers of Christ and of the blessings of SALVATION that are in Him.”
The Church is made up of PEOPLE who are in Christ. They are believers in Christ. They are Christians.
The Church is called the body of Christ.
The Church is also called a Temple of the Holy Spirit. Do you recall anywhere in Scripture where it states that the ANGELS have the Holy Spirit or are part of the Temple of the Holy Spirit?
Also, Christ DIED for the Church (Eph 5:25). Did Christ die for any of the ANGELS?
Lastly, the Church is called the Bride of Christ.
(also see Eph 5:22-32)

64

News Item4/26/09 6:04 PM
Whyso  Find all comments by Whyso
DJC49 wrote:
1] Where are you going with this question?

2] Eph 3:10-12
"10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access"

Did you get that???
The Church ... will show and manifest the wisdom of God.........
principalities and powers in heavenly places, i.e., ANGELS.

1] The church is the Body of Christ. Christ is in complete spiritual harmony with God and the Holy Spirit. Thus they are as much a part of the church as the elect.

2] Eph 3 Teaches only that the angels have learning of God's wisdom as much and as indeed we do.
These verses do not preclude them from the church and it's spiritual existence. They don't "need" to be on the outside looking in.
"If angels, who are permitted to see the face of God, do not walk in faith, neither do they need the outward administration of the word." (Calvin)
Thus church is the revelation of the wisdom of God to all including angels and men. But angels are a spiritual part of this revelation in their ministry/learning WITHIN the church, thus members of this divine revelatory work.

63

News Item4/26/09 5:01 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Whyso wrote:
Are God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit members of the Church?
Where are you going with this question? And what does it have to do with the ORIGINAL premise that: (fact) the angel Gabriel is a MEMBER of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church? (see the post of *hebrewseleven* 4/25/09 11:58 PM & my subsequent post)
_____

Now, ... more "on point" ...

Read: Eph 3:10-12

"10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."

Did you get that???

The Church ... will show and manifest the wisdom of God. IOW, God will put on display His wisdom through the agency of the Church to those OUTSIDE the Church, namely, principalities and powers in heavenly places, i.e., ANGELS.

Now put 2 and 2 together and see what you come up with.

I come up with:

"Angels AREN'T MEMBERS of The Church!"

For your profit, *Whyso*, check out this sermon:
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=91002124943]]]Angels LEARNING FROM THE CHURCH[/URL]!

Angels are ministering spirits, not Church members.

62

News Item4/26/09 4:37 PM
Whyso  Find all comments by Whyso
DJC49 wrote:
That's all GREAT!
Be that as it may ...
As I stated previously: "Angels aren't MEMBERS of The Church."
Nary a one.
The ORIGINAL premise (with which I take exception) was:
(fact) the angel Gabriel IS a member of The Church.
No sir.
Are God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit members of the Church?
61

News Item4/26/09 4:22 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Whyso wrote:
"The function of angels may be seen clearly from their part in the saving mission of Jesus Christ. They are naturally present when this both begins with the nativity (Matt.1; Luke 1-3) and ends with the resurrection (Matt.28:2 and pars.) and ascension (Acts 1:10f). They also assist the church in its early ministry (eg. Acts 5:19;10:3). They will play an important part in the events of the end time (Rev.7:1f. etc.). Finally they will come with Christ when he returns in glory (Matt.24:31) and separate the righteous and the wicked (Matt.13:41,49). They do not do the real work of reconciliation, which is Christ's prerogative. But they accompany and declare this work, praising the God of grace and glory and summoning men and women to participate in their worship (Luke 1:46). Interestingly, there seem to be only two angelic appearances between Christ's birth and resurrection: at the beginning of his way to the cross in the temptation (Mark 1:12) and then before the crucifixion itself in Gethsemane (Luke 22:43)
That's all GREAT!

Be that as it may ...
As I stated previously: "Angels aren't MEMBERS of The Church."
Nary a one.

The ORIGINAL premise (with which I take exception) was:
(fact) the angel Gabriel IS a member of The Church.

No sir.

60

News Item4/26/09 3:54 PM
thumbsupmessenger  Find all comments by thumbsupmessenger
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=81206172827]]]sermons on angels[/URL]

Why not listen to the study on angels here on sermonaudio-whyso

[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=gabm&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=The+Study+of+Angels]]]Here[/URL]

59

News Item4/26/09 3:45 PM
Whyso | from ELWELL Theol Dicy  Find all comments by Whyso
DJC49 wrote:
First of all
"The function of angels may be seen clearly from their part in the saving mission of Jesus Christ. They are naturally present when this both begins with the nativity (Matt.1; Luke 1-3) and ends with the resurrection (Matt.28:2 and pars.) and ascension (Acts 1:10f). They also assist the church in its early ministry (eg. Acts 5:19;10:3). They will play an important part in the events of the end time (Rev.7:1f. etc.). Finally they will come with Christ when he returns in glory (Matt.24:31) and separate the righteous and the wicked (Matt.13:41,49). They do not do the real work of reconciliation, which is Christ's prerogative. But they accompany and declare this work, praising the God of grace and glory and summoning men and women to participate in their worship (Luke 1:46). Interestingly, there seem to be only two angelic appearances between Christ's birth and resurrection: at the beginning of his way to the cross in the temptation (Mark 1:12) and then before the crucifixion itself in Gethsemane (Luke 22:43). This is perhaps because Jesus had to tread his way of atoning self-giving alone, and in his humiliation he is made a little lower than the angels (Heb.2:9) though exalted far above them by nature (Heb 1)"...OOS
58

News Item4/26/09 1:49 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Whyso wrote:
Prove it!
First of all, The Church is the body of Christ
[See: Eph 1:22,23; 5:23; Col 1:18,24]
Those who have been redeemed by Christ, who are "IN Christ," are the exclusive members of His body -- The Church.
NO ANGEL was ever redeemed by Christ.
NO ANGEL can be said to be "IN Him."
NO ANGEL will ever be a part of His Resurrection.
NO ANGEL has ever been "called out" (that's what church means).
Any given angel has been either loyal OR rebelled.

Now as for Rev 1:20
The word "angel" literally means "messenger."
Although it CAN mean celestial angel (it does throughout Rev) it cannot refer to angels here because angels are NEVER leaders in the church. Most likely, these "messengers" are the 7 key elders representing each of the 7 churches.

And this: in Rev 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,14 the verse reads:
"unto(to) the angel of the church of(in) _______ **WRITE**

Now, one would have to have rocks in his head to even imagine that Jesus was commanding John to WRITE specific messages to literal, celestial angels! What for? So that these celestial angels could read the WRITTEN messages from John, then retell them to the members of each of the 7 churches? Huh? Wha?

NO!

The "angel" of the 7 churches was the key elder in each church of Rev.

57

News Item4/26/09 9:00 AM
Whyso  Find all comments by Whyso
DJC49 wrote:
Angels aren't members of The Church.
Prove it!

Revelation 1:20 .....The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write

etc etc x seven times

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

56

News Item4/26/09 8:01 AM
Lance Eccles | Goulburn, NSW  Contact via emailFind all comments by Lance Eccles
DJC49 wrote:
Angels aren't members of The Church.
That's an interesting point. I'd never thought about it. But I don't know whether your statement is right or wrong.
55

News Item4/26/09 7:37 AM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
hebrewseleven wrote:
I would rather put my money on the fact that (even according to the KJV of the bible) he [the angel Gabriel] is a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
You'd lose that bet.
Angels aren't members of The Church.
54

News Item4/25/09 11:58 PM
hebrewseleven | ontario  Contact via emailFind all comments by hebrewseleven
I just read that Hail Mary? article. How interesting. I would like to quote it as follows:

"Attributing praise and worship
to humans that have no basis to receive such is not uncommon in forms of religious and
political paganism, e.g., “Hail Caesar” or “Hail Hitler.”"

Now I would like to quote the KJV of the bible (Lk 1:28; emphasis added):

1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, HAIL, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Apparently Gabriel is a member of some apostate church too...or.

I would rather put my money on the fact that (even according to the KJV of the bible) he is a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

53

News Item4/1/09 7:53 PM
Faithful Remnant  Find all comments by Faithful Remnant
John Yurich USA wrote:
they do not want to believe that any church that worships Jesus as God and believes in the Holy Trinity is where Jesus is
Actually the Bible is silent on Jesus needing people to embrace the Trinity doctrine in order for Him to be among them or to be true Christians. What matters is submitting totally to God by embracing the Holy Bible alone as the only divinely inspired, immutable and infallible authority and Jesus Christ alone as the only savior and infallible head of the congregation. He is God in the flesh and in Him only dwells all the fullness of God. He alone is the author of salvation and the forgiveness of sins in His name to all who believe.
52

News Item3/30/09 2:29 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Oh, oh, Mike Gendron who was Catholic for 30 years has a lot to worry about doesn't he GG? He wrote such excellent articles as, [URL=http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/roman-catholicism/RC1299W2.htm]]]Is A Catholic Christian An Oxymoron?[/URL], [URL=http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/roman-catholicism/RC1W0902.pdf]]]Is the One True Church Roman Catholic?[/URL], and [URL=http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/roman-catholicism/RC0200W2.htm]]]Come out of the Catholic Church[/URL]. No, John, I hope you have read the other excellent comments before this one, since you never to have seemed to have listened to the sermon, [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=5504151546]]]The Doctrine of Apostates[/URL]. The Seventh Day Adventists come much closer to following what you say the Romish Church does, but as the above sermon points out they are also apostate. John you really are a syncretist and not a Christian.
51

News Item3/30/09 8:40 AM
Here24  Find all comments by Here24
John Yurich USA wrote:
These Evangelical Protestants on here have so much hatred in their hearts for any church that is not an Evangelical Protestant Church that they do not want to believe that any church that worships Jesus as God and believes in the Holy Trinity is where Jesus is at and not just in Evangelical Protestant Churches.
John Y
The Reformation in the 16th century was ordained by GOD! What in effect GOD did was return His Church to the truth of Scripture and away from the RC dogma's which had been added to the Bible by the Pope's and their followers.

The Pharisees in Jesus time and previous to that had been doing exactly the same thing. Jesus rejected them and their unScriptural additions.

The Lord calling them "BLIND GUIDES" records their rejection in the twenty verses beginning......

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Christ rejects their doctrine thus...

Matt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Be Warned!

50

News Item3/30/09 8:22 AM
GK  Find all comments by GK
John Yurich USA wrote:
These Evangelical Protestants on here have so much hatred in their hearts for any church that is not an Evangelical Protestant Church that they do not want to believe that any church that worships Jesus as God and believes in the Holy Trinity is where Jesus is at and not just in Evangelical Protestant Churches.
correcting error and those who blindly persist in living in it is not "hatred"
49

News Item3/30/09 6:48 AM
John Yurich USA | USA  Find all comments by John Yurich USA
GG wrote:
"Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I AM IN THE MIDST OF THEM"....even in Catholic Churches Jim...or is Jesus wrong about this?
These Evangelical Protestants on here have so much hatred in their hearts for any church that is not an Evangelical Protestant Church that they do not want to believe that any church that worships Jesus as God and believes in the Holy Trinity is where Jesus is at and not just in Evangelical Protestant Churches.
48

News Item3/29/09 3:22 PM
Guinness  Find all comments by Guinness
So GG,

Where two or three of the "ignorant" "unbelievers", raised in a "different" and "contrary" belief system, are gathered together in Jesus' name, is "your" Jesus there with them?
And biblically, since it is impossible for two people to know each other when they are ignorant of each other, then surely they are doomed to hell for one will assuredly say "I never knew you" and "depart from me" to your RCC amnesty "unbelievers".

Your softer, kinder, Catholicism still ties itself in knots and unravels very quickly.

As for me, by God's grace, I trust that I am in your latter group. I reject Rome in its official Antichrist teachings and stand fully with Christ's "different" and "contrary" gospel found in the scriptures.

As for you, please quote original Magisterial sources, as they alone can expound and determine this teaching, not you.

May God have mercy on you, even yet, after all these years of sending witnesses to you. Repent now, for the days may be short.

47

News Item3/29/09 3:15 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
GG, as I tried to point out to your fellow Catholic(?) John, when you add something to Christianity it is just as bad as subtracting from it. This principle is stated in,

Revelation 22
18I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: 19and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

You not only have a warped view of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, but have added the goddess Mary to the mix. I pointed out to John, about [URL=http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/roman-catholicism/RC4W0700.pdf]]]Hail Mary?[/URL]. The Romish Church twists scriptures just like any other group of [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=11907101328]]]Satan's Counterfeiting of Christianity[/URL]--even reading the description of that sermon should give you an idea with the problems [URL=http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/roman-catholicism/RC2W0601.pdf]]]Roman Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses[/URL].

DJC49, excellent advice for anyone.

46
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