On the Trinity, Baptist worship largely settles for two out of three
Hymns sung in most Baptist churches historically have been "More About Jesus" than about either God the Father or the Holy Spirit, several church music experts agree.
"From a Baptist perspective, I don't think the hymnody has ever been Trinitarian," said Clell Wright, director of choral activities and Logsdon professor of church music at Hardin-Simmons University in Abilene, Texas.
Consequently, when it comes to Baptist understanding of the Godhead as reflected in congregational song, "Our Trinity is more two-point-something rather than three," said Terry York, associate professor of Christian ministry and church music at Baylor University's School of Music and George W. Truett Theological Seminary in Waco, Texas....
Let‚Äôs talk about perfection. The perfection, being & living like Christ, the perfection you preach is done only by your own will, your own strength. Unless you include the Holy Spirit, you are burdening the sinner, & all though they may tread water for awhile, the will eventually drown. All changes in me, going from a man without God, to a man dependent on Jesus Christ, all happened through the Holy Spirit. Take Scripture for ex., it also says this very thing, the Helper, who is the Holy Spirit of God, will reveal all Truth to you. & I tell you the truth, before, I couldn‚Äôt understand a word of the Bible, & now, & because of the Holy Spirit, I understand Scripture better than most ‚Äútheologians‚ÄĚ & ‚Äúpastors.‚ÄĚ To see if your Church is failing this test, ask them if they understand the Scripture, especially the Parables. I promise you that if you have left the Holy Spirit out of your preaching, & worship, they do not understand the half.
I do not study the Scriptures; I enjoy them, & not like fresh air, buy like oxygen that is needed for life. Although I am not pastor, I can give an hour sermon on this one sentence (wish some of you pastors would):
"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
As an SBC pastor, my concern is that the title of this article seriously understates the case:
The problem is not that we don't focus on the Holy Spirit enough. The real problem is that many of our churches have abandoned the Gospel, and thus do not have one, two, or three Persons of the Trinity in their midst. It's not that we have One but not the Others: it's that we have none.
There is also the misnomer in the title, such that "worship" is equated with how or what we sing. Rather, when you submit your mind to transformation and your body as a living sacrifice to do God's will, that is the act of worship (or spiritual service) that ought to concern us. (See Romans 12:1-2)
Michael Hranek wrote: As politely as I may I don't see what the Calvinistic WCF, which I believe seriously distorts election and the character of God in Chapter 3, has to do with this news report.
Well Michael, you did say quote; "Am I missing something in the discussion on this thread?" unquote.
If you could perceive the truth in the WCF's teachings and Biblical doctrine, then that missing something may be made manifest. You see the Holy Spirit, (the thread topic) and grace does it all. Man's will is incarcerated in the domain of sin. Or to put it another way, "Man is stone cold dead in his sin."
As for Election - Let us help you.
"2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man;[a] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[b] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[c]" WCF. [a] Rom 9:11; Eph 2:4-5, 8-9; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 3:4-5. [b] Rom 8:7; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:5. [c] Ezek 36:27; John 5:25; 6:37.
rogerant wrote: All of God's wrath toward the elect was poured out upon His Son. God's wrath is then expiated toward the elect, but remains on the non elect.
Ah but rogerant Gill differentiates between anger and wrath. Hence he says, quote; "The anger and wrath of God are often used promiscuously in Scripture, to signify the same thing, and yet they sometimes seem to be distinct; and according to our notion of them, as in men, they may be distinguished: anger is a lower and lesser degree of wrath, and wrath is the height of anger; and accordingly I shall distinctly consider them, as in God."
RtG wrote: I showed you that in David's case the Lord was angry. It appears that you think the crucifiction changed God in His attributes, that He now restrains His anger at His post NT children??? Why?
Thank you for the article, however, did you read the whole article yourself. John Gill believed in particular atonement which teaches: All of God's wrath toward the elect was poured out upon His Son. God's wrath is then expiated toward the elect, but remains on the non elect.
As you can read at the end of Gill's document, for believers, post atonement:
:but in reality, there is no wrath comes upon them now; their afflictions and chastisements are all in love; and there will be no curse hereafter; but they shall always see the face of God, and be "in his presence, where are fulness of joy, and pleasures for evermore" (Rev. 3:19, 22:3, 4).
Michael Hranek wrote: Am I missing something in the discussion on this thread?
Affirmative Michael! Here is the input you need....
1. "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,[a] IS THE WORK of the SPIRIT of Christ in their hearts,[b] and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;[c] by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.[d]" (WCF) [a] Heb 10:39. [b] Eph 1:17-19; 2:8; 2 Cor 4:13. [c] Rom 10:14, 17. [d] Luke 17:5; Acts 20:32; Rom 1:16-17; 4:11; 1 Pet 2:2.
Is it not true that when one person (as we say) of the Trinity (again, as we say) is worshipped the whole Godhead is worshipped and adored? Can we divide God?
It's a little like that foolish question about whether the writings of the Apostle Paul were "more" or "less" reliable than the words of Jesus Christ.
The real problem is if we either un-deify Christ or make Him God alone, doing away completely with those other two who are of the same essence as He and yet distinct from Him. I know Arianism is guilty of the first fault and there are others guilty of the second, whose name I don't recall.
BTW, I am a Baptist by conviction and practice, and I never knew any of my persuasion who denied the other persons of the Trinity. However, I did find that there was a tendency to be fearful of too much active charisma in singing (clapping and raising hands, etc), which has recently gone way overboard with very energetic and entertaining worship teams, etc., who encourage emotionalism and call it spirituality.
Frankly, there really aren't a lot of hymns about the Holy Spirit. And those most contemporary sound very pentecostal and irreverent and should be avoided.
How, pray tell, can God be rightly known and sung about without any consideration of the work of Christ?
Am I missing something in the discussion on this thread?
Isn't the news report regarding the opinion of some that a Christian should be giving more emphasis on and worship of the Holy Spirit?
btw the SBC if famous or infamous if you will of having a blend of all sorts of stuff like permitting members of the Masonic Lodge to be deacons and pastors under the guise of Christianity.
Also in my opinion the Holy Spirit and His genuine ministry in the life of a child of God is unimaginably important and those who are born again desperately need Him to fill us, teach us, lead us and empower us in our service of Christ...but to focus our singing about Him or whether or not anger might or might not be sin, sin that grieves Him seems to be on an entirely different tract.
btw since anger has been mentioned I do believe there are ongoing sins, disobedience and evil going on here today that motivate God, Yes, even the Spirit of God to righteous anger. The fear of the LORD is to hate evil btw and if one is filled with the Spirit they might know something of His hatred of evil such as David experienced when Goliath was mocking God.
rogerant wrote: The passages that you posted speaks of His, chastening and rebuking. He is not punishing the saint out of anger, He is chastening out of love.
I showed you that in David's case the Lord was angry. It appears that you think the crucifiction changed God in His attributes, that He now restrains His anger at His post NT children??? Why?
I personally believe that I have and can experience the Lord's anger, when I have sinned. I do not reject this I welcome it. Because then I know my Father more completely, in all His attributes, and that is what I seek to do as one of His children. His anger demonstrates exactly where He stands on sin within me and my sins. This is not just head knowledge from reading, but faith. I do not need to precondition Him to know Him. God is my Father in all His attributes, in Christ, I am His adopted son. We are made in His image and His attributes are part of that image.
I invite you to read the following, by John Gill.
[URL=http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal_Divinity/Book_1/book1_17.htm]]]Of the Anger and the wrath of God.[/URL]
While the "Charismatic Movement" major on the gifts of the Holy Spirit (counterfeited?), laughing revivals, ecumenism, word of faith theology(heretical fantasy), giving money so you can get more, so called Christian psychology, etc. etc....I have to seriously question whether or not they are genuine born again Christians in the first place.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth NOT ERROR, NOT HERESY and just because one has an emotional experience doesn't automatically mean the spirit giving those emotions is the Spirit of God, that would be the One True Living Holy God of the Bible.
And if someones "holy" spirit hasn't convicted them of their sin, of the Holiness of God, that a child of God is to obey Christ and obey the word of God, hasn't poured out in their heart the love of God and has led them to trust, to love and to obey God, something is amiss with whatever spirit they've gotten.
While Christians may sing of the Holy Ghost(He is truly unimaginably important in our lives), He Himself would lead us and empower us in our worship of the Father and The Son, He simply does not draw attention unto Himself.
So I might ask the one who commented in this article, "What is the matter with you, isn't the Father and isn't Christ good enough for you?"
A) Being a SBC, Southern Baptist, ya'll, although I have charismatic DNA from the Holy Spirit, I "see" A lot & use a lot of songs about God's Spirit in our worship, but I do realize & teach that SBC have been known to have a spare tire theology about the Spirit of Christ. B) What do you mean by anger? IF we sin, & GOd says we will, 1 Jn.1:8-9, we ourselves have stepped away from God's influence & greived the SPIRIT within. That is pain enough. I would agree that the punishment of sin have propiatiated but the presence of sin in us & our choices move us to an experience of the lack of God's blessing for His nature is Holy & all non-holiness is authomatically outside of His blessings. He can use our unholiness to teach us & discipline us. I am seeing God's anger against sin as part of His immutableness. SO it is not so much that God acts against us but we(beleivers & unbeliever) act against His eternal bidding. Beleivers have repentence in Christ to ask for, unbeleivers may wander in the desert of ignorance until the Holy Spirit convicts them.
RtG wrote: I use the whole Bible Not just one part of it. It is the whole counsel of God, and teaches about God working with His people. I do not dismiss the OT since Jesus taught that He came not to destroy it but to fulfil it. Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the CHASTENING of the Lord, nor faint when thou art REBUKED of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he CHASTENETH, and SCOURGETH every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure CHASTENING, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father CHASTENETH not? I do not have a problem with my Father angry at me. In point of fact like Spurgeon, I would be very surprised if at times, He were not angry at His children. "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
I did not say anything about the O.T. not being the council of God. What I asked was, can you find me any scripture where is says that God gets angry at his saints after the atoning death of His Son.
The passages that you posted speaks of His, chastening and rebuking. He is not punishing the saint out of anger, He is chastening out of love.
rogerant wrote: All of the passages that you just posted were pre crucifiction. Can you find any post crucifiction passages that speak of God being angry at his saints?
I use the whole Bible Not just one part of it. It is the whole counsel of God, and teaches about God working with His people. I do not dismiss the OT since Jesus taught that He came not to destroy it but to fulfil it. By Grace, I perceive God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in the whole Bible.
God is the perfect Father and He will obviously get angry with His children at times. But He is longsuffering and needs to be.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the CHASTENING of the Lord, nor faint when thou art REBUKED of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he CHASTENETH, and SCOURGETH every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure CHASTENING, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father CHASTENETH not?
I do not have a problem with my Father angry at me. In point of fact like Spurgeon, I would be very surprised if at times, He were not angry at His children.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
26 Be ye ANGRY, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your WRATH: Remember also Paul's teaching about sin in Romans 7:14ff
Propitiation for sin, not anger? Are you saying that God did not satisfy his anger towards you by pouring it out on His Son?
Are you saying then, that God is still angry towards or at you?
I don't know about your God. But the God of the bible HAS expiated all of his wrath towards his saints. The God of the bible IS SATISFIED, and He IS seated on the Mercy Seat. God was not only angry at our sin, He was angry at SINNERS. We sin because we are SINNERS.
26 Be ye ANGRY, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your WRATH:
Paul is talking about us not being angry and to not let the sun go down upon our wrath. Why? Because God has put away His wrath towards us, not our sin, so therefore, since he has done this, put away your anger out of gratitude for what He has done for us.
rogerant wrote: Can a believer provoke God to anger? If a beleiver can provoke God or the Holy Spirit to anger, then he is as good as dead. Because anger must be propitiated.
Yes! Propitiation for sin - not anger!
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
Can you sin in your body? If so that would anger the Spirit. After all HE is not exactly going to be happy about it is HE? All of the Trinity have the attribute of righteous anger. Our Father knows His children all too well and I'm sure many of His children provoke Him to anger by sin.
Also this advice in Ephesians to Christians reminds us of the sin remaining in us which we are to learn to control and reject.
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye ANGRY, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your WRATH:
Remember also Paul's teaching about sin in Romans 7:14ff
pew view wrote: Believers must be careful not to grieve him or provoke him to anger through sin.
Spurgeon is a good teacher, but...
Believers must be careful not to provoke him to anger?
Was not this anger not expiated at the cross?
Expiate means: to breath out completely. If you expell all of your breath out of your lungs, their is not any thing left to breath out. God has expiated all of his Holy wrath (anger) towards his people "on Christ". If you are "In Him", the anger has been expiated
Can a believer provoke God to anger?
If a beleiver can provoke God or the Holy Spirit to anger, then he is as good as dead. Because anger must be propitiated.