BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany unveiled a monument to the tens of thousands of homosexuals persecuted under the Nazis, whose laws were used to prosecute gay men for a generation after World War Two.
Berlin mayor Klaus Wowereit, who is openly gay, hailed the grey, concrete memorial as a long overdue acknowledgement of the repression of homosexuals, 50,000 of whom were convicted by Nazi courts during Adolf Hitler's 12-year dictatorship.
"The monument consecrated today is a reminder to us of the horrors of the past and draws our attention to the degree of discrimination that currently exists," Wowereit said.
"Great efforts will still need to be undertaken before the sight of two men or women kissing here or in Moscow or elsewhere on the planet is accepted by society in general."...
If the execution of a sodomite by the civil govt. is wrong, then it has always been wrong. We believe in absolute truth, right?
Well God absolutely commanded in his word that sodomites should be executed for thier crime.
If it is in FACT wrong to execute sodomites, then God is wrong, and his word proves to be unreliable and untrue.
If Jesus said in essence "only non-sinners can throw stones"...then why did God command sinners to throw stones in his law!
It would be impossible (and would always have been) to execute any criminal if sinners cannot "throw stones"
If we cannot (by God's command) throw stones...then Moses could not command the guilty to be stoned.
Jesus did not teach against exectuing crimanals (sodomites, adulterers, murderers, etc.). Re-read John 8 and you will see that he supports the law of Moses not rejects it. If in John 8 Jesus did not uphold the law of Moses then he would have fallen into the pharisee's trap! He kept the law of Mose perfectly when dealing with the woman caught in adultery.
Mark M. wrote: I believe that the sin of homosexuality is, has been, and always will be an abomination to God. That being said, we are all guilty of something. In New Testament times it is not acceptable to execute homosexuals or anyone else for these types of sins, if we as a society did so without being hypocrites then we all would be up for execution. I don't know about how the women feel, but for us men remember even if you look at a girl with lust in your heart it is just as bad to God as if you committed adultery. I'm happily married but by this standard I would have to lock myself in my room, turn off the TV, throw away the computer, and hope that I can occupy my imagination in a healthy way. The bottom line is that we can not live up to God's standard, that is the entire reason that Jesus came to us. He did not change any of the laws, but he gave us the means to live our lives and use the laws to see our sins and be forgiven for them. If a government executed all sinners, we would never have a chance.
True. It would also require agents of government to execute each other.
Jim Lincoln wrote: I see some of you are confusing the fact that we are New Covenant people and not Old Covenant people!
Ah Jim, me lad; As a good Covenantal Presbyterian let me offer you this wonderful quote from a good friend of mine.
"Now, as to the new covenant, it is not so called, because it is contrary to the first covenant; for God is never inconsistent with himself, nor is he unlike himself, he then who once made a covenant with his chosen people, had not changed his purpose, as though he had forgotten his faithfulness. It then follows, that the first covenant was inviolable; besides, he had already made his covenant with Abraham, and the Law was a confirmation of that covenant."(John Calvin)
"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had BEING YET UNcircumcised."Rom 4:11/12
I see some of you are confusing the fact that we are New Covenant people and not Old Covenant people!
Gil Rugh said or, wrote: There is only one way to become a member of the body of Christ. That one way is by placing faith in Christ and the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit who places the person into the spiritual body of Christ as He takes up an indwelling presence in that person.
New Testament baptism is not a replacement for Old Testament circumcision.
Physical birth makes one a member of the nation of Israel. Only spiritual birth makes one a member of the Church. Differences between the Church and the physical nation of Israel remain distinct down through the present Church age.
From, [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=3907125457]]]Baptism By One Spirit Into One Body[/URL]
This is why we only observe nine of the Ten Commandments, q.v. [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=92402115618]]]Legalism is Shadow, Christ is Substance[/URL], and do not observe the Jewish Sabbath.
As far as capital punishment is concerned, see the chapter about that in [URL=http://www.ihcc.org/images/booklets/pdf/L121.pdf]]]Rendering To Caesar: A Biblical Perspective On Government[/URL].
I believe that the sin of homosexuality is, has been, and always will be an abomination to God. That being said, we are all guilty of something. In New Testament times it is not acceptable to execute homosexuals or anyone else for these types of sins, if we as a society did so without being hypocrites then we all would be up for execution. I don't know about how the women feel, but for us men remember even if you look at a girl with lust in your heart it is just as bad to God as if you committed adultery. I'm happily married but by this standard I would have to lock myself in my room, turn off the TV, throw away the computer, and hope that I can occupy my imagination in a healthy way. The bottom line is that we can not live up to God's standard, that is the entire reason that Jesus came to us. He did not change any of the laws, but he gave us the means to live our lives and use the laws to see our sins and be forgiven for them. If a government executed all sinners, we would never have a chance.
Now folks, I'm NOT opposed to capital punishment. I support it. However, I'm not sure that we want to enact the Old Testament code for it. Perhaps I misjudge the forum. Are we in fact in favor of executing the adulterer? The Sabath breaker? Or are we being selective in our enforcement by limiting it to the murderer and the sodomite?
Tony. You are confusing personal moral uprightness with Civil justice.
The Law and word of God requires the civil magistrte/authorities to punish criminals for thier crime. If they don't there would be anarchy.
Murderes should be punished, if found guilty the law/word of God requires execution. Sodomite should be punished, if found guilty the law/word of God requires execution.
Both you and I can preach the gospel to murderers and sodomites all day. That would be a good thing.
But criminals are still going to, have to, be punished by the civil authorites..eg. you can go to death row and preach the gospel to an inmate, but if he accepts christ they are not going to let him out of prison, he is still going to fry...though he as a Christian will enter heavens glory.
Now Shawn, you know that you just opened a plethora of possibilities here don't you? Time to line up all circus fortune tellers, readers of horoscopes, adulterers (you know what Jesus said about THAT), disobedient children, Sabath breakers, (think of the hundreds of thousands of fans at Sunday ball games) blasphemers, false prophets (the whole TBN network), those unchaste during marital engagements, etc. Why even Hanging Judge Parker didn't have a gallows big enough to handle that. Don't take it personal, I'm just having some fun. I don''t really believe that a New Testament Christian such as yourself would kill all the homosexuals in the world without trying to preach Jesus to them and follow David's lead (a man after God's own heart) and leave it in His hands. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay". Romans 12:19. Again, "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good". Romans 12:21, Again, "If your enemies are hungry, feed them, if thirsty give them drink, by so doing you will heap coals of fire upon their heads". Romans 12:20. Lord Bless: Tony
No, not specifically. Just that the execution of homosexuals who are found guilty of the crime is a good, just, and righteous thing, according to the word of God. Thus, anyone who has the belief that homosexuals should be executed for their crime is a belief that is good, because it is in line with God's law. If the Nazis had that belief, it was good...though many other things they did were bad.
San Jose John, take a look at, [URL=www.foxtel.com.au/1686.htm]]]Hitler's Perfect Children[/URL]. Naturally, Hitler himself, couldn't have been part of the breeding program.
One has to wonder also is this isn't a not so subtle anti-semitic gesture by some Germans to equate Jews with homosexuals since this new monument is very near to the one that points out the Jewish holocaust?
Shawn: Just for the record: Are you indicating a belief that the wholesale slaughter, and torture of homosexual men by the Nazis was a desirable action and one to be encouraged by other nations today such as the United States and Great Britain for example?
We are seeing the destruction of society right before our eyes. It is impossible for a civilized world to procreate and continue life if homosexualty is continually pushed upon us. We will become plagued with diseases and other calamities promised in the BIBLE. You have to be a real child of GOD to understand what's going on in the world. Other wise this makes no logical sense. If you have not noticed all these disgusting lifestyles are only taking place in countries who are supposed to be highly educated England, USA and western Europe. My pray is the Holy Spirit comes with a real world revival not some fake televangelist but like Jonthan Edwards, DL Moody, The Welsh revival. God we submit to you and your order not man's flemsy paganism and hedonism.
The Norwegian children who were born as a result of the Lebensborn Experiment suffered terribly, and many of them committed suicide. Even though they were innocent victims, they were persecuted for being the offspring of Germany soldiers.
My last sentence is mistaken; I conflated two ideas in my mind. 1st, there were "Lebensborn" clinics which gave assistance to unwed mothers & their children if they had "correct" racial characteristics. 2nd, Himmler encouraged his SS men to have a go with single "Aryan" ladies w/o worrying about their marital status or even their nationality; Scandinavians (as you might imagine) were considered acceptable too.
The "stud farm" bit may have been some leftover Allied propaganda. I think Stalin also went thru a big family subsidy mode, as did the French before WW1 when they were worried about demographics vs. Germany.
Thanks for asking.
Trivia: according to Jonah Goldberg, Himmler was a fan of organic foods. I try to forget that while we shop at Trader Joe's!
Neil wrote: Nat'l Socialist populist ideology was big on German "family values" (Kinder, Kuchen, Kirche), only because you can't breed lots of world-conquering blond Supermen with them all sleeping together, Greek fashion. There were even SS "stud farms."
SS "stud farms"? Wow. I didn't know that. I did know that the Nazi's, in addition to their "iron cross", also had a similar medal called the "mothers' cross", awarded to those German women who had the most kids.
This is ironic since some prominent Nazis were themselves homosexuals, particularly the thuggish Sturmabteilung leader Ernst R√∂hm. Historians do not believe he was purged because of his sexual preferences, but because of the SA's political power. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Roehm
Nat'l Socialist populist ideology was big on German "family values" (Kinder, Kuchen, Kirche), only because you can't breed lots of world-conquering blond Supermen with them all sleeping together, Greek fashion. There were even SS "stud farms."