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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  12/8/2019
Choice News SATURDAY, DEC 22, 2007  |  456 comments
Honest Calvinism Talks Urged among Southern Baptists
The head of the largest Protestant denomination is not a Calvinist. But in response to ignited discussions over the rising influence of Calvinism, Southern Baptist Convention president Frank Page has clarified that he is open for dialogue.

"Most everyone who knows me knows that I am not a Calvinist," said Page in a column on Baptist Press this week. "However, I have made it clear that I would be fair to those who are Calvinists in appointments in our convention. I have been true to my word."

Page was responding to a LifeWay Research study that showed a growing percentage of Baptists are affirming the five points of Calvinism - total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. The study was released in November. ...


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News Item1/26/08 10:14 PM
JD  Find all comments by JD
[Removed by SermonAudio.com]
456

News Item1/26/08 10:01 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Find all comments by DJC49
derek,
For His glory and namesake, I'm sure that God cares if His *elect* will be saved. You might not care, which is to say that you don't care for God's chosen and adopted children. Why's that? Maybe you just don't like the idea of Christians being called the *elect*. Frankly, I really don't like the tag either as it carries the modern-day connotation of being elite. However, the Apostle Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark and Luke had absolutely no problem with the term (see: Col 3:12; 2Tim 2:10; 1Pet 1:2; Mat 24:24; Mar 13:27; and Luk 18:7)

And NO ... man has NOT the ability to thwart God's plan. Haven't you heard?

"Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?" and "Who shall separate us [the elect] from the love of Christ?"

Do you hold it against God that He knows and has ALWAYS known the exact number of those who would be saved even their very names? Fortunately for us time-bound creatures, we have absolutely NO foreknowledge who the elect might be. Therefore, evangelization should be done with all due diligence and care on our part.

I'm confident that God's elect get saved in God's timing, through good evangelization, by God's grace, precisely fulfilling the plan of God.

How God weaves man into His plan of redemption for the elect = another Christian MYSTERY.

455

News Item1/26/08 10:01 PM
JD  Find all comments by JD
DJC49 wrote:
... to these others, the "Good News" was either a stumbling block or foolishness. Better that they never heard it at all; for once hearing and rejecting, their condemnation would be all that more severe.
It sounds like the message this man is preaching that one is not elected and is actually created for the day of destruction and has not opportunity nor unction to be saved on the one hand and on the other, he is responsible for rejecting the word of God and is more liable and condemned stronger if he does hear it and does not accept it. My head spins with this kind of logic.
454

News Item1/26/08 8:33 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Find all comments by Alan H
Lance Eccles wrote:
I don't see why it's necessary to make a choice between the two statements. They're not contradictory, and they can both be true.
Are they both really the truth, as you wrongly suppose?

1. Christ died to make salvation —possible— for "EVERYONE."

2. Christ died to make the salvation of "SOME" —certain—.

It might help to understand better the difference if you read Yamil's original comments as I recommended to Michael Hranek:

"1. The love of God is demonstrated in the fact that he offers everyone the —opportunity— to be saved if they should place saving faith on the finished work of Christ.

2. God willed for everyone to have the same —opportunity— for salvation, not just a few lucky few. He is the one that willed the plan and the willed its conditions.

3. For God so loved the world. The cross makes it —possible— for anyone to be saved. Without it noone can ever be saved."

(Evangelists lament Calvinism, SBC trends, 1/21/08 6:32 PM)

An "unlimited" atonement is not an "actual" atonement. It suggests:

(1) Jesus Christ died for no one in particular.

(2) He suffered God's wrath against sin for both those in heaven and all those in hell.

(3) It does not satisfy God's justice.

453

News Item1/26/08 7:54 PM
derek | Missouri  Find all comments by derek
DJC49 - you said:
"I also pray that JD's evangelizing results in NO false or shallow professions of faith which might very well result in their having obtained just enough "religion" so as to inoculate and seal them, temporarily, from the Truth."

Who cares if the elect will be saved anywway.

"Evangelization is very serious stuff."

Again - why? You sound like man has the ability to thwart God's plan. Maybe it's not salvation your worried about but that people might be lead away from Calvinism.

452

News Item1/26/08 7:51 PM
Lance Eccles | Goulburn NSW  Contact via emailFind all comments by Lance Eccles
Alan H wrote:
Which of the following statements agrees best with your understanding of the gospel?
1. Christ died to make salvation —possible— for "EVERYONE."
2. Christ died to make the salvation of "SOME" —certain—.
I don't see why it's necessary to make a choice between the two statements. They're not contradictory, and they can both be true.
451

News Item1/26/08 7:30 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Find all comments by Alan H
John Calvin | Best Alias In the World (Yamil, wearing a mask of Calvin) wrote:
Allan,

Do you really want an honest discussion, or is this one of those "I gotcha" questions that you come up with after you realizes how dehvastating the truth was? If it is, then I must tell you, its quite weak. Nevertheless, I am curious to know if you are at all sincere in following the discussion to the logical conclusion.

Yamil,

You're afraid to answer my question directly and honestly, not because you're worried about me "gettin' ya," but because you will "snare" yourself by any answer which you give.

450

News Item1/26/08 6:41 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Find all comments by DJC49
JD wrote:
No, he found out she was one of the elect chosen from before the foundation of the world and all his effort was for naught since she was never in any real peril of losing her soul. He could have stayed home and watched the game.
Your flippancy and sarcasm is duly noted, JD, ... and spoken in the SAME spirit of those who thought that their liberty in Christ afforded them the license to sin even more so that grace may abound giving even greater glory to God.

Paul knew that he preached the Gospel for the sake of the elect who would eventually hear and by grace through faith obtain salvation. For the others who heard and did not believe? ...

JD wrote:
What he should have been doing is finding someone who had been created for the day of destruction to tell them the good news, glad tidings of the gospel.
... to these others, the "Good News" was either a stumbling block or foolishness. Better that they never heard it at all; for once hearing and rejecting, their condemnation would be all that more severe.

Hey, even the "Good News" is a two-edged sword -- cutting BOTH ways -- since it is the Word of God. Like the sun, it has the power to melt the wax or harden the clay.

449

News Item1/26/08 6:38 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Find all comments by Alan H
Michael Hranek, 1/26/08 7:14 AM:

"Christ's Sacrifice has made salvation certain for everyone who would believe in Him. "

Michael, I appreciate your personal comments concerning my "REPOST," dated 1/26/08 12:08 AM and directed to Yamil, but it is a little ambiguous. Both JD and Yamil might acknowledge as much as you have indicated, but that "believing" seems to be, in their case, produced by man's independent effort, with neither the aid of the Holy Spirit or need of the Grace of God.

Let me ask you this, do you agree with Yamil, below?

"1. The love of God is demonstrated in the fact that he offers everyone the —opportunity— to be saved if they should place saving faith on the finished work of Christ.

2. God willed for everyone to have the same —opportunity— for salvation, not just a few lucky few. He is the one that willed the plan and the willed its conditions.

3. For God so loved the world. The cross makes it —possible— for anyone to be saved. Without it noone can ever be saved."

(Evangelists lament Calvinism, SBC trends, 1/21/08 6:32 PM)

Secondly, do you think faith is man's own doing, as JD, or God's operation upon man?

Michael. my argument is contrary to no Biblical truth whatsoever.

Yamil,

I did not say, "No!"

448

News Item1/26/08 6:09 PM
John Calvin | The Best Alias in the World  Find all comments by John Calvin
Alan H wrote:
So I take it your answer is a no.

Go figure.

447

News Item1/26/08 6:02 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Find all comments by Alan H
John Calvin | Best Alias In the World (Yamil, wearing a mask of Calvin) wrote:
Allan,

Do you really want an honest discussion, or is this one of those "I gotcha" questions that you come up with after you realizes how dehvastating the truth was? If it is, then I must tell you, its quite weak. Nevertheless, I am curious to know if you are at all sincere in following the discussion to the logical conclusion.

I wrote: "In light of what you wrote I would like to ask you a question. Which of the following statements agrees best with your understanding of the gospel?

Which of the following statements agrees best with your understanding of the gospel?

1. Christ died to make salvation —possible— for "EVERYONE."

2. Christ died to make the salvation of "SOME" —certain—.

If you answer "number one," which seems consistent with your comments above, then Christ's sacrifice saves no one "actually," but only "potentially.

Was His sacrifice the payment of a debt or a paycheck for a performance?"

Yamil, You've already reached your own illogical conclusion. Your problem is defending it and defining how it does not invalidate entirely the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ, i.e. the Gospel itself.

446

News Item1/26/08 5:59 PM
JD | The School of Sound Doctrine  Find all comments by JD
"I merely did the pointing, like Evangelist in Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress "

I would truly love to hear your presentation of the gospel since you have mocked the simplicity of believing when John Calvin said he gave them the same answer as Paul when he said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

What are you telling them, you rascal?

445

News Item1/26/08 5:45 PM
Response  Find all comments by Response
John Calvin wrote:
Hint: Longer and more than the Calvinist.
ie. When was the last time you led a soul to Christ?
Never.
The Lord has granted instrumentality to this poor soul.. and many have been truly saved .. I merely did the pointing, like Evangelist in Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress - pointing to yonder wicket gate - but the Lord was the one who did all the hard work- opening the sinners heart, making them feel their sin and evil, showing them the need for pardon and forgiveness, for reconciliation, a new heart etc..

To God be all the glory!

Who am I that I should take the credit?

Now hear again the fool ask: "When was the last time you led a soul to Christ?" -- He wants credit for the fantastic thing he has done - what a "christian"!

444

News Item1/26/08 5:33 PM
JD | The School of Sound Doctrine  Find all comments by JD
DJC49 wrote:
Oh, and by the way, how long did you spend winning that lost soul to Christ? Did you fully explain the Holiness and total Righteousness of her Creator/God? Did you lay out the comprehensiveness of the LAW to her? Was she totally BROKEN by her realization and conviction of the multitude of her sins any ONE of which would consign her to an eternal damnation? Did you explain to her that God was angry with her and demanded justice be done? Did you tell her about Jesus and his terrible sacrifice upon an awful cross incurring the Father's infinte WRATH upon Him on her behalf? Did you instruct her about the Resurrection and what it TRULY meant to have saving faith in the LORD and Saviour and that repentance was necessary?
Or did you just hand her a nifty tract, telling her about 4 things she needs to know and 5 steps she needs to take to get "saved."
No, he found out she was one of the elect chosen from before the foundation of the world and all his effort was for naught since she was never in any real peril of losing her soul. He could have stayed home and watched the game.

What he should have been doing is finding someone who had been created for the day of destruction to tell them the good news, glad tidings of the gospel.

443

News Item1/26/08 5:03 PM
Response  Find all comments by Response
John Calvin wrote:
...Praise the Lord all ye his saints.! Another sinner has accepted the Lord as Savior today. We told her that she is a sinner on her way to hell. We also told her, that Jesus loves her and wants to save her if she would put her faith in Christ and repentance towards sin.
Guess what? She believed it! Somehow I doubt that the Calvinistic Gospel would fare so well. Maybe that is why the Calvinist themselves do not even use it...
The reformed churches would wait to see the fruits of repentance and faith before jtaking encouragement that anyone had truly exercised faith.

But here we see a classic example of the easy believism "gospel" that declares someone saved the moment they say they believe - little does this so called preacher understand that the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jer 17.9

Let's hope this one is not another one who will one day say I tried Christianity and it is all baloney! - Simply because some misguided fool taught her that she could be saved by her belief!!

Another disciple of this fool (my guess is Yamil)- sure- but a true disciple of Christ? Only time will tell!

442

News Item1/26/08 4:52 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Find all comments by DJC49
John Calvin wrote:
... Somehow I doubt that the Calvinistic Gospel would fare so well.
Don't be silly. There is no "Calvinistic Gospel." That's only some STRAWMAN that you've cooked up in your own imagination.

Oh, and by the way, how long did you spend winning that lost soul to Christ? Did you fully explain the Holiness and total Righteousness of her Creator/God? Did you lay out the comprehensiveness of the LAW to her? Was she totally BROKEN by her realization and conviction of the multitude of her sins any ONE of which would consign her to an eternal damnation? Did you explain to her that God was angry with her and demanded justice be done? Did you tell her about Jesus and his terrible sacrifice upon an awful cross incurring the Father's infinte WRATH upon Him on her behalf? Did you instruct her about the Resurrection and what it TRULY meant to have saving faith in the LORD and Saviour and that repentance was necessary?

Or did you just hand her a nifty tract, telling her about 4 things she needs to know and 5 steps she needs to take to get "saved."

I hope you didn't convince her that she now had absolute assurance because she said some little prayer and that God was on the hook to keep His promise to save her because of it ...

441

News Item1/26/08 4:46 PM
Walt | Michigan  Find all comments by Walt
Gil Rugh wrote:

"Calvinism is traditionally summarized in five points. But it is interesting to note that Calvin’s “five points” find their origin not in Calvin, but in the “five points” of Arminius! Arminius’ followers presented to a church council five points upon which they disagreed with Calvinistic theology. The council, in responding to those five points, presented the “five points” of Calvinistic doctrine. Thus the Calvinistic doctrine became identified with five distinct tenets."

Excellent! If we could get the average Arminian Baptist and Pentecostal to understand this it would go a long way to having them avoid stumbling over their keyboard on this site!

Rugh writes:

"The Church today emphasizes a salvation that depends upon man and his response. Evangelists often implore people to “make a decision for Christ,” as if it were entirely up to them. This leads some unbelievers to arrogantly say, “Well, maybe I will decide for Christ—but maybe I will not. I will have to think about it.”

Amen again! Jim, I'm afraid this document will be rejected by these folks as it is written by man, and not coming through a vision or dream they seek.

440

News Item1/26/08 4:36 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
I will say one still should look at, e.g., [URL=http://www.ihcc.org/images/booklets/pdf/L200.pdf]]]Calvinism & Arminianism[/URL]. As Norman Geisler put it, evil is the the absence of good, [URL=http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/bible-for-dummies/BD0405W3.htm]]]The Problem of Evil[/URL].
439

News Item1/26/08 4:15 PM
Walt | Michigan  Find all comments by Walt
Whoever is behind the breastplate of Calvin's name, please explain this comment:

"Praise the Lord all ye his saints.! Another sinner has accepted the Lord as Savior today. We told her that she is a sinner on her way to hell. We also told her, that Jesus loves her and wants to save her if she would put her faith in Christ and repentance towards sin."

Why are you saying, "Praise the Lord all ye his Saints!"?

Would it not be best if you gave the credit to yourself for delivering the message and give the credit to this lady who accepted your message? It seems to me that together you both should get all the praise...why do you give it to the Lord?

Come out from behind Calvin and really take a bow for your good works! Of course, they are of yourself and the Lord has not right to this praise I can tell by your typical Arminian teachings.

Don't be afraid to show the world you are God Himself...as there is a whole coming movement that will proclaim themselves to be God, and it will all originate with Arminianism and Roman Catholicism! Unmask yourself and show us who is this false gospel teacher!!!

438

News Item1/26/08 2:07 PM
badhorsie777 | covington, ga  Find all comments by badhorsie777
God is not the author of evil, but He is sovereign. Nothing comes to pass unless He wills it. If God on some level does not desire evil to be, yet wills it for the greater good, what is the problem? If God brought forth Jesus 2000 years ago and did not ordain that His life, persecution, and crucifixion came to pass, then the previous millenia of prophecies might not have come to pass! But you see everything happened as it was said it would. God, without being the author of evil, removes His Spirit's restraining influence for a time and allows corrupted human desires to fulfill themselves, NECESSARILY.

It comes to this: if you do not believe in the total depravity of man, as described in the Word, then everything we say on this subject will smack of "puppet-mastery". But if you believe that our heart is wicked above all things, and nothing good comes from man without God's intervention, then there are no more contradictions. This isn't philosophy (as I've been accused of once or twice on here before) this is truth - culled systematically from sound exegesis and two millennia of Godly thought. To deny it clearly leads to man-centered comments like "God isn't in control of THIS or THAT area of the universe".

437
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