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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | Fridays | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  11/19/2017
Choice News WEDNESDAY, NOV 24, 2004  |  57 comments
Is Declaration of Independence unconstitutional?
In a season typified by lawsuits against manger scenes, crosses and even the words "Merry Christmas," a California case is taking the "separation of church and state" one step further – dealing with whether it's unconstitutional to read the Declaration of Independence in public school.

Attorneys for the Alliance Defense Fund filed suit Monday against the Cupertino Union School District for prohibiting a teacher from providing supplemental handouts to students about American history because the historical documents contain some references to God and religion.

"Throwing aside all common sense, the district has chosen to censor men such as George Washington and documents like the Declaration of Independence," said ADF Senior Counsel Gary McCaleb. "The district's actions conflict with American beliefs and are completely unconstitutional." ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 57 user comment(s)
News Item12/4/04 3:04 PM
Ezra  
Cops are not kings. They carry out the law.

Instruments of wrath?

We need police to protect the innocent from the criminal in a sinful world.

57

News Item12/4/04 2:52 PM
Gray Ghost | Dixie  
Ezra: "The Word of God declares that Christ is our only king, our only ruler."

Resp: While I can agree to that. Try pointing that out to the next cop that stops you for speeding.

56

News Item12/4/04 2:41 PM
Ezra  
The Word of God declares that Christ is our only king, our only ruler who is infallible.

Orthpres:

The courts have stepped outside of their own rule: the Constitution. They are acting in an unconstitutional fashion in making laws and casting doubt on the language and faith in God even noted in the Declaration of Independance.

The Courts have become an advocate of Communism and Secular Humanism, declaring themselves infallible and the only authority on the Constitution's meaning.

We must note that this Court is not in line with the doctrine of our Founding Fathers- bless their name.

55

News Item12/4/04 2:21 PM
Gray Ghost | Dixie  
OrthPres: Don't get excited. I only said that you made me think, not that I am like some backyard planter, brimming over with your wisdom. How you answer my questions will tell the tale.
54

News Item12/4/04 2:18 PM
GG | Dix  
OrthPres: "...The courts judge according to a standard that is apposed to the very God that has ordained the ordinance of civil majesty wherein courts as civil ministers are established and are supposed to rule according to just law."

Resp: What is the standard that the courts judge by that is in opposition to God? Where did God ordain the ordinance of "Civil Majesty" (what is Civil Majesty?)? What do you mean by "Just Law"?

53

News Item12/4/04 2:13 PM
Gray Ghost | Dix  
OrthPres: At the risk of misunderstanding you again. Let me start off at the beginning slowly. Feel free to correct me with straight-forward conventional english and drop the Lawyer-ese, please.

1-Ezra: Have you ever thought to ask by what standard makes a court lawful?

Resp: For you to ask this question, leads me to believe that you reject the notion of democratic republican (one man one vote)govt as practiced in these United States. Am I correct?

2-"Respectfully, when you hold-up a constitution as supreme, that in and of itself is unlawful, as it is in fact against the criteria given by “Framer of the nations of the earth” for “lawful” civil magistrates from which to function as ministers civil. (Ref. Rom. 13.4) you become constituent of the sanction of the very license that you bemoan."

Resp: I do not hold the US Constitution above God's law, but it is the Civil Law of the land. Do you feel that the nation can be run under God's law alone? What do you mean by 'the criterion “Framer of the nations of the earth”'?

"In their civil offices, the courts will of necessity behave the way...of usurped authority, our Constitution."
Resp: Only God can rule men? Or only Christians can rule men? Or only Protestants can rule men?

52

News Item12/4/04 1:38 PM
orthpres | Marietta, GA  
…continued from previous post….

Also Tony,

Please don’t assume that I maintain that a doctrine has to be reestablished from N.T. scripture for it to be binding on me as a Christian. I maintain that unless a doctrine/practice has been either abrogated or changed that it’s still binding on God’s church. 2 Tim 3:16 states that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine…”
I can’t get out of that as there are too many examples of the O.T. moral law unto the N.T. people cited by Christ and the Apostles for example and guidance.

51

News Item12/4/04 12:10 PM
orthpres | Marietta, GA  
Tony,
That's very insightful as to the nature of the matter. Can you take a bit of your time and cite from the N.T. references that show a continuation of that mandated foundation and pattern as applied to His people of O.T. times?
50

News Item12/4/04 10:17 AM
Tony | Greenville, SC  
the last few verses of Psalm 2 seem to have bearing on this discussion.

2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings
: be instructed, ye judges of the
earth.

Here God in His word is putting forward to all civil magistrates wheresoever they be that they need to be wise or acquire wisdom(wisdom according to God's word not the wisdom of this world)

2:11 Serve the LORD with fear
, and rejoice with tembling.

It is then told to them what they must do with that wisdom received. This is a command to all civil magistrates throughout the earth as well.

2:12a Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish[from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

And now more specifically they(the civil magistrates) are told to give honor, worship, reverence to the Messiah of God, Christ Jesus. The consequence of not obeying this precept has been witnessed time and time again throughout history.

Nations(the civil magistrate and the people who elect him) who continue to dishonour Christ as Prophet, Priest and King and do not give him the honour and trust due His name will fall.

2:12b -Blessed
[are] all they that put their trust
in him.

But those that honour and trust the Lord Christ will be blessed and be established by the Lord God of hosts(armies)

49

News Item12/4/04 3:14 AM
orthpres | Marietta, GA  
Answer: I was under the general assumption that question marks following a statement indicated a question. Generally, when I or someone that I’m reading mistakenly leaves them out, the thrust of the statement usually reflects that a mistake was made, thereby allowing continuation of discussion or flow of data. The feathers are the passive, the ruffling is the active. I’m glad Gray Ghost that a seed was planted with you.
48

News Item12/4/04 3:11 AM
orthpres | Marietta, GA  
Gray Ghost:
Resp: Yes you are very astute. What slurs? Perhaps you mean inviting you leave for England, or the Theocracy remark. Neither is a slur.
Answer: Technically they’re both used in ad-hominem, however to some following the thread that don’t know what that is, (Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic, reason, etc…) character and/or source assignation unto evasion or dismissal of argument may be reasonably parallelized with the more commonly understood term of slur as they are used as demonstrated.

Resp: I don't make it a habit to broadcast my weaknesses nor my strengths. Your writing is difficult to follow. I may not understand you.
Answer: We all broadcast, to a greater or lesser degree, our strengths and weakness’ with everything that we write. Usually, as illustrated with the response with “a believer”, I find it rather appropriate to simply ask for further elaboration or clarification if that is the case.

Resp: Sorry! Perhaps If you were more clear that you had a question, I could answer it. I thought I was discussing the D.I. and the Constitution with someone who wanted a discussion. But, if I have to unruffle your feathers constantly, then forget it. But, your article did make me think, and for that I thank you.
continued...

47

News Item12/3/04 11:17 PM
Neil | Tucson  
Isn't it more important to evaluate the D of I in light of the UK Constitution rather than the US, which came later?

African slavery was indeed the moral scandal of the day, and did not bear well upon colonial leaders of the time (as Samuel Johnson noticed); nonetheless, it is an ad-hominem in the D of I debate. The propriety of the D of I is not logically dependent upon the moral consistency of some of its promulgators.

By the way, legalized yet morally tolerable slavery (i.e., compulsory labor) still exists - jury duty, military service, prison. African slavery was an exception because most of its victims were enslaved by their neighbors via kidnapping, a capital crime in Scripture (see http://www.covenanter.org/McLeod/negro.htm ).

46

News Item12/3/04 5:18 PM
a believer  
Orthpres, what I mean is that one of the indisputable evidences of a true Love of God is that we love our neighbor and desire the best for him. Scripture, itself, tells us that if we have not love we have nothing (1 Cor 13:1). What the founding fathers were guilty of was hypocracy in that they wanted to be free from the tyranny and slavery of England, while at the same time continuing the vile, indefensible, and evil practice of slavery. Which by the way also dissolved many marriages between slaves, something only God is qualified to do. Therefore, it could never be lawful in God's sight. God is not the author of sin in anyway.
45

News Item12/3/04 3:56 PM
Gray Ghost | The South  
orthpres:
1st you haven’t offered-up an apology for the slurs :

Resp: Yes you are very astute. What slurs? Perhaps you mean inviting you leave for England (this is a choice put to you by me, to decide if you can value the Constitution as a document important to the citizens of this county, If not,you can go where you are more appreciated) or the Theocracy remark (You give me the impression that you know more about God, than the rest of us. I for one would rather find God on my own, Thanks).

2nd in places of "apparent" ignorance, you have not humbly admitted so, unto the acquisition of further data in this area, :

Resp: I don't make it a habit to broadcast my weaknesses nor my strengths. Your writing is difficult to follow. I may not understand you.

3rd you have evaded my previous questions. :

Resp: Sorry! Perhaps If you were more clear that you had a question, I could answer it. I thought I was discussing the D.I. and the Constitution with someone who wanted a discussion. But, if I have to unruffle your feathers constantly, then forget it. But, your article did make me think, and for that I thank you.

44

News Item12/3/04 3:46 PM
Gray Ghost | The South  
orthpres:
1st you haven’t offered-up an apology for the slurs :

Resp: Yes you are very astute. What slurs? Perhaps you mean inviting you leave for England, or the Theocracy remark. Neither is a slur.

2nd in places of "apparent" ignorance, you have not humbly admitted so, unto the acquisition of further data in this area, :

Resp: I don't make it a habit to broadcast my weaknesses nor my strengths. Your writing is difficult to follow. I may not understand you.

3rd you have evaded my previous questions. :

Resp: Sorry! Perhaps If you were more clear that you had a question, I could answer it. I thought I was discussing the D.I. and the Constitution with someone who wanted a discussion. But, if I have to unruffle your feathers constantly, then forget it. But, your article did make me think, and for that I thank you.

43

News Item12/3/04 3:36 PM
Mike | New York  
orthpres,
Sorry I wasn't clear on my question. Is there any country **today** being given the grace of which you speak?
42

News Item12/3/04 2:16 PM
orthpres | Marietta, GA  
Gray Ghost,

1st you haven’t offered-up an apology for the slurs that you have publicly hurled at me,
2nd in places of "apparent" ignorance, you have not humbly admitted so, unto the acquisition of further data in this area,
3rd you have evaded my previous questions.

If the Lord provides additional time this weekend or early next week, I’ll respond to your latest assertions/questions.

41

News Item12/3/04 2:01 PM
orthpres | Marietta, GA  
Hi A believer,

Could you kindly elaberate on your point?

40

News Item12/3/04 1:33 PM
orthpres | Marietta, GA  
Mike: When one’s lenses of human autonomy are exchanged for the lenses of scripture (sola scriptura) they are able to view history as God has brought it forth. He is after all the God of history. (Ref. Act. 17.26 “And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation”) Several “nations” in history have been given grace as such. A short book for you to “freely” obtain at http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/wonders.htm, although its worth doing web search to locate a used copy of, and read regarding one of those “nations” in history past is “The Wonders of the Most High: 125 Years History of the United Netherlands 1550 – 1675."
39

News Item12/2/04 10:56 PM
Gray Ghost | Dixie  
OrthPres: It's true that the lawfulness of an idea is not determined by the number of people who die for it. Any idea or symbol that illicits that amount of devotion and sacrifice has a hold on the mind and heart of man for a reason. The D.I. states that Govt's derive their just powers from the consent of the governed and that the rights of men come from God. When you refer to the transcendent Law of God, as revealed in Scripture, I think that you mean the 10 commandments. The 10 Cmds has to do with mans behavior toward God and other men. The D.I. is talking only about mans Govt and mans inalienable rights. God's law is higher and much of man's law is based on God's Law. But, men have not been able to agree on what God says in the Bible for over 2000 years. Yet you hold the Scriptures as a sure-fire standard for the laws of men? Yes, it is the sure-fire standard for the Laws of God. But, the two laws systems are intended for different purposes. Man's law is to bring peace, order, and progess to men living in close community with each other. God's Law is intended to bring peace, order and a starting point for salvation to men living in close community with God. God even punishes those who flout mans laws. In what way is the US Constitution unlawful? Where is that handled in Bible?
38
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