I appreciate the kind way Steve is delivering the evidence for his position. He does it in a kind way, and I appreciate that. I consider it my duty now to show where he has missed it with his passages he brought up in his last speech, because I think he's misusing them, and I hope to show you how. First of all, I would like to respond to your argument on John 6, verse 37 and following, where it says, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me. I don't have a chart on that. That's the unconditional election. They brought it with me, figuring he might bring this up. It is true that all the Father giveth me shall come to me. But if you notice a passage like Matthew 22, verse 14, the Bible says many are called, but few are chosen. That shows that more than the saved have the opportunity. It is true that all the Father gives to Jesus will come. But more than just the saved are given the opportunity, because he says many are called, but few are chosen. And that's the choice tonight. Are there people that have the opportunity to be saved, but aren't? Stephen says no. The answer is yes. Many are called, but few are chosen. Now, I want you to notice when he says all that the Father has given me shall come to me, that this salvation Well, the thing that's being talked about here is conditional. Notice John 6, verse 44. No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up the last day. So the way that God draws folks to him is through the teaching of the gospel. Now, getting to the point on this statement, but I want to give some preliminary statements. God uses means by which to draw. I think Stephen agrees with that thus far. Sometimes God does things through means. For example, I think we may have pointed out in one of our last two debates that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Exodus 7, verse 13, 9, 12, and so forth. Then the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Exodus 8, 15, 8, 32, 9, 34. How can both of those be true? Stephen's position, they can't both be true because he believes that God directly pardoned Pharaoh and that Pharaoh then had no choice about it. But I believe that God hardened Pharaoh's heart through means. The means were the miraculous events, the plagues and so forth. God hardened Pharaoh's heart all right enough, but he didn't take away Pharaoh's choice. He did it because he knew that through these miraculous events, Pharaoh's heart would be hardened. God wanted to do that for his own glory. And so God does this through me. Now, likewise, Stephen, yes, all the Father gives me shall come to me. Likewise, the Father gives Jesus. through means, all those that will come in through means, not force, but by choice. You say, how can that be so? Everybody look at Luke 8, 15. Luke 8, 15. Now we're in the middle of the explanation for the parable of the sower. It says, but they that are on the good ground are they which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it and bring forth fruit with patience. Those with a good heart do obey. And those that continue to have a good heart continue to obey. So when the Bible says that all the Father gives me shall come to me, it's talking about God giving to Jesus those with a good and honest heart. Every single one of them will come. But it's through means. It's not force. It doesn't take away their choice because it's through the word of God, as we read in John 6, verse 44. It's through means that allows them to have the choice. And we talk that way all the time. We're out here, one of the reasons we have this debate is because we're looking for those with a good and honest heart. Many people don't. You don't really hope to reach them, but you're looking for those with a good and honest heart. And they will come if they have a good and honest heart. Every person that has a good and honest heart will come to Jesus. All that the Father gives, Jesus will come. Luke 8, 15 shows that those with a good and honest heart are the ones that God gives to Jesus. And these other passages show that it remains He draws them through the Word, John 6, verse 44. So it's not by force, it's by choice. Then Stephen brought up Jeremiah 32, verse 40. We'll look at that and put up number 18. The last part of that verse is, I will put my fear in their hearts and they shall not depart from me. First of all, and there's a similar idea to this just before that in the verse before, but they're the same, that they shall not depart from me. The other one is very similar to that. Notice that God will put his fear in their hearts. Stephen acts like that was something, as we say, that the Calvinists teach, irresistible grace. He put the fear in there, and it seemed to me that Stephen was saying that he forced it upon them so that they could not resist it. No. He put the fear in them the same way he hardened Pharaoh's heart through me. The same way that he gives to Jesus all those that come in John 6, 44. Those that are drawn by the teaching of the Word of God, John 6, 44 and 45. So he doesn't put the fear in their hearts by force, take away their choice. He does it through means, through the Word of God. It's through the Word of God. Now, the last part of this thing is what Stephen thinks should give my opposition a problem. I will put my fear in their hearts that they shall not depart from me. Stephen is mistaken that for a phrase or a sentence meaning absolute certainty, but that's not, he's reading it wrong. This is not saying that he puts their fear in their hearts, and we know that's through means, that there's no way they can depart from me. That's not what it's saying. It would be like this thing. Baseball players should wear helmets when they bat that they don't get hurt. That they tells you purpose. Not necessarily absolute certainty. That's not what that's talking about, is that they cannot depart from them. We'll see some passages in a moment, like Hebrews 3, 4, it shows they can depart from the living God. That's not what that's saying. It's not stating absolute certainty. That's not what that sentence would mean. That they don't get hurt. That doesn't mean absolute certainty just because you put a helmet on a kid, he's not going to get hurt. But that's the purpose for why we put the helmet on. That they don't get hurt. It states purpose. And that's exactly the purpose why God puts fear in their hearts. That they shall not depart from me. That's the purpose for it. Here's a passage. There are some other passages that have that same wording, but Exodus 4, 8 through 9. Moses asked God at the beginning of this chapter, how am I going to get him to believe me, the Israelites? God said, I'm going to send two signs. The first sign was he changed his rod to a serpent. That's the first sign. The second sign is he put his hand into his bosom, pulled it out to be leprous. Leprous, you may remember. It's in Exodus 4. And then when he puts his hand in his bosom again, he comes out and it's clean. He said God gives those two signs so that Israelites will believe Moses is there to lead them out. So they'll respect it. But notice Exodus 4, 8 through 9, Stephen, in the audience, it says the reason he gives these signs, it says that they will believe the voice of the latter son. Does that mean with absolute certainty they will believe the voice of the latter son? There's the same phraseology. The reason he gives the two signs, that they will believe the voice of the latter son. Does that mean? That that's absolute certainty they will believe it? Or does it mean that that's the purpose why God gave the two signs? Well, we know it's not absolute certainty because the very next sentence says, and it shall come to pass if they will not believe also these two signs. And he goes on to tell what would happen then. So is this absolute certainty? No, it's telling the purpose of why God gave the signs. Not that there's no way they'll get around from believing the voice of the latter sign. God even presents that possibility in the next sentence. It should come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs. So, in this statement and these other passages, when you can see the phraseology, that they is stating purpose, not necessarily absolute certainty. Now, I want you to notice something. Raise it up a little bit, Terry. We can go back over these passages if necessary. In using Jeremiah 32, 40 to prove his position, Stephen has admitted something very important here. Because he says that Jeremiah 32, 40, when it says that they shall not depart from me, That proves his position that a Christian can't fall from grace. So he's admitting that if they did depart from him, that would prove my position. That if somebody departed from God, that would prove that they left God and that they lost their salvation. You see, if he's using this verse to prove that absolute certainty they won't depart, that that means you can't lose your salvation. Then he's admitting that if somebody did depart from God, they would lose their salvation. He would lose his position in this debate. Duh, Hebrews 3, verse 12. Take ye brethren, lest there be any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. He's admitted that if a person could depart by his argument on Jeremiah 32, verse 40, that means they would lose their salvation. And he's using the passage to prove you can't lose your salvation. But we showed it didn't mean absolute certainty, but stated perfectly. Here we have an example of somebody departing from the living God and they were brethren. Christians were warned not to depart from the living God. So, according to his old argument, Hebrews 3, verse 12 would prove that a person could lose his salvation. So, we're going to go into Hebrews 3, verse 12. It reads again, Take ye, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Now, notice that those addressed are brethren. The inspired writer addressed them as brethren, and not just somebody that thinks it, if God says they're brethren. Verse 1 puts it this way. Holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly covenant. That means they're Christians, right? Not only are they called brethren, they're called holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling. That's who the writer of Hebrews is writing to in Hebrews 3. All right, raise it up. I want you to notice along the way some warnings. It says, whose house we are if we hold fast to confidence and hope, and firm unto the end. That's a meaningless statement if Stephen's position is true, because It's not a matter of if. If you're already part of the house of God, you'll stay a part of the house of God. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But the writer says whose house we are if we hold fast to confidence and hope firmly to the end. So let's raise it up. Stephen says that a believer in Christ cannot become an unbeliever. Hebrews 3, 12 says he can't. Talking to a believer, a holy brother, one that was partaker of the heavenly calling, it says, Take he, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, so he can change from a believer to an unbeliever. Stephen says a brother in Christ cannot depart from God, but this says in departing from the living God. Stephen says a brother in Christ cannot lose his salvation, but Hebrews 6, 3, 6, 12 and 14 teach that he can. What about the fate of a believer who changes to an unbeliever? Notice John 3, 36b. He that believeth not shall not see light. So we have a believer, a brother, one who protects, a protector of the Holy Covenant. He says, take he lest you become in unbelief and departing from the living God. Now, if he changes from belief to unbelief, what does the Bible say about him? John 3, 36b, he that believeth not shall not see light. That proves that if he becomes an unbeliever, he departs from the living God, he's lost. And then put up number 10. Stephen had a good deal to say about John chapter 10, verses 25 and following. Notice John 10, 27 through 28. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Now, notice this word pluck, defined by Thayer as snatch out or away. That doesn't sound much like me voluntarily leaving the Lord, does it? It sounds like talking about someone else taking the man by force. Pluck means somebody snatched him out by force. So it wasn't, this is not discussing whether or not a man can voluntarily decide not to be a Christian anymore. Stephen and the audience, we agree that a sheep, a follower of Christ, will never perish. Absolutely. You ask, it's either yes or no. Can he absolutely perish? Can he perish? No, absolutely not. A sheep can never perish. That's not the issue. That's not the issue. That's just assuming everything this debate's all about. The debate is over whether or not a sheep can change and become a non-sheep. That's what the debate is about. You see, that's the issue. Is it possible for a sheep to quit being a sheep, that is, to quit following Jesus? Is it possible for a Christian, as long as he's a Christian following Christ, there is no way he'll ever perish. God is stronger than the devil or any man. But if he quits being a sheep, remember, a sheep, according to the context, is one that's following Christ. If he quits being a sheep, there's no guarantee here that he'll be saved. Let's look again at some passages that show that a sheep can quit being a sheep and be lost. Hebrews 3.12, Take heed, brethren, or sheep, we could say, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God. If he did that, would he still be a sheep? No, a sheep is one who follows Christ. He wouldn't still be a sheep if he did that. Therefore, he wouldn't have the guarantee of never perishing, would he? John 6.66, in the life of Christ, it says from that time, From that time, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him. Here's some people who were, quote, sheep in that sense, but they quit being sheep. They quit being followers of Christ in the literal sense. Jude, verse 21, a passage I want you to consider. Remember, can a sheep change and become a non-sheep? Jude 21 says, keep yourselves in the love of God. Well, that verse is just meaningless if it's impossible for someone, a sheep, to become a non-sheep. Because if he's in the love of God, it would be impossible for him to leave the love of God. Keep yourselves in the love of God. Now it says no man is able to pluck him out of the father's hand. But notice Revelation 3 verse 11. Hold that fastness thou hast that no man take thy crown. So John 10 is not saying that it's impossible for a man to pull you away from God if you let him. This shows that if you don't hold fast, a man can take away your crown. He can pluck you out. We can't allow a man to pull us away from God, but it's our choice. No way he's powerful enough or no way the devil's powerful enough if we don't do it voluntarily. If we don't hold it fast, though, he can take away our crown. Now, Stephen, either we have to make our calling and election sure, or 2 Peter 1, verse 10 is meaningless. My opponent thinks a sheep that quits being a sheep will be saved anyway. Now, less than a minute. I don't have time to go to number one here. I want you to remember Galatians 5, verse 4. If you try to be justified by the law, you are calling for grace. Isn't that simple? It's just a matter of whether or not we believe it. And then I brought up James 5, that a brother could err from the truth, and if you're converting that, you save a soul from death. It shows that a brother could be lost. Revelation 3 verse 5, the person's name is in the book of life, he's saved, yet the possibility remains that it could be erased out. That frees my position. 2 Peter 2, 23-22, I show these people in verse 1, are bought by the Lord, which He says in a question, that proves they are of the elect. It says their state, if they go back into the sins of the world, is worse than if they never become a Christian to begin with. Thank you very much. But as we saw, I delight in being a relative of God, why? Because the law is on my heart. The departing is not because he forces them, it's because he works in them. As Ezekiel says, I will give you a new spirit, I will give you a new mind, I will take out the heart of stone, I will put in a heart flesh, I will write my law from the heart. That's the internal work of God that I'm afraid cats just do not understand. I say that with as much humility as I can. He sees the work of God as merely external. I think it's reflected in the way that we pray. When we pray, O God, open my eyes that I might see wondrous things from your law. Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, but incline my heart. There is a realization that God, I need his help. I am desperate in need of him to change my heart, change my mind, though I have responsibility. Ultimately, my heart, There is none righteous, nor not wronged. There is none who seeks after God. And it is said, one with a good and noble heart. Where does that good and noble heart come from? Ezekiel says, I believe it in your heart. A couple of things there. Again, Jeremiah 32, 40. He's forced them. I have not said he's forced them. I've said he grants them a heart and a mind that they may fear him and they may not then depart from his ways. Again, it's not an external element. If I change the inner workings of my heart to run from a regular unleaded to a diesel, it's not potential. I change the inner workings of how it functions. And there's nothing more inner to us than our heart, our mind, all that is wrapped up with our affections and with our desires God grants them to us. He bursts us again into the Kingdom of God so that we have a new heart and a new mind. I want to look at a couple of passages, for instance, in Deuteronomy chapter 5 and verse 29, relating back again to Jeremiah. But here in Deuteronomy chapter 5, We see that God longs, even under the New Covenant, for His people to have a new heart. In Deuteronomy chapter 5 verse 29, Oh that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever. He's longing for a time when his children will keep all of his commandments, and I don't believe that means sinlessly, but it means continuously, enduring them, that they will continue. He longs for that. What is it, if they had a heart in them to fear him? He says, they will always keep my law, they will not depart from me. Isn't that exactly what he says to the grant in Jeremiah 32, my cousin? He will grant them a heart that will fear Him, and according to this passage, what will happen? They will lovingly, rejoicingly, desiringly fall after God and will not depart from Him. We'll come to that in Chapter 3. It's also noted in Ecclesiastes Chapter 3. Ecclesiastes chapter 3. I'm concerned that Pat doesn't have a proper view of what takes place in salvation. Ecclesiastes chapter 3, because he sees God's work is merely external from us, and we have to hang on to the life preserver, and it's all up to us, and it's all in our strength, and all in our perseverance. But he does not see that the work of conversion is a work of God in the heart, and in the mind, and granting in part. So we see in a passage like Ecclesiastes, Chapter 3, verse 14. I know that whatever God does, it shall be forever, and nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken from it. God does it that men should fear before Him. So here it is that He does, and nothing can be added to it. There's a persevering granting of faith, and endurance, and perseverance, not contrary to choice, but because dead sinners who are rebellion against God's law, He grants them newness of life. It's called the New Birth. It's called the resurrection from the dead. It's not merely mental ascent, but it's the work of God in the life of a person who is, as we saw a few debates ago, blind, dead, deaf, etc. from God. Now he said, Hebrews chapter 3 verse 14, it's impossible to depart from someone if you're not part of them. Galatians chapter 5 verse 4, it's impossible to fall from something that you've never been attached to. I'll get to that in just a moment. John chapter 10, he says sheep are those sheep as long as they continue to follow him. But isn't it interesting, Jesus defines it very differently, doesn't he? In John chapter 10, In John chapter 10, and be careful of the language switch that's going on here, like Hebrews. Depart, brethren, for a sheep. It's not the same thing. Don't let him do this debating switch on you, please. Notice in John chapter 7, excuse me, John chapter 10, What does Jesus say about His sheep? Verse 4, When He brings out His own sheep and goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know His voice, yet they will by no means follow a stranger. He told us that sheep can follow Christ for a while, then they follow after somebody else. But Jesus said, My sheep will return to My sheep, hear My voice, and they won't follow a stranger. They will by no means follow a stranger. They will no way ever follow a stranger. Does that mean that they ever won't be led astray, ultimately? Now, let's consider for just a few minutes, I think, something that is absolutely fundamental for you to understand my position. And that is that the Bible speaks in two perspectives. It's all the Word of God. Please don't mishear me. Every jot, every tittle, every mark, every dot, every slash is the Word of God. But the Word of God does not always speak from God's perspective. That is what God seeks. When Paul writes, he writes inspired by the Spirit, but Paul is not omniscient. Paul is not all-knowing. Paul is not infallible in his knowledge of all things. God is. Peter doesn't know the hearts of men. He can only identify what men are by how men live. God doesn't have to look at the outward. He sees the heart and He knows about them. It says that in John chapter 2, that they may believe on men, but Jesus did not entrust Himself to them because He knew all men. They believed. And the followers were following them, they were his disciples, and he says, I'm not going to trust myself to you, because I've seen your heart, I've seen the searches of the heart and the mind, and your part is not right. There's an external profession of faith, he says, but he did not trust himself to them. Now, I believe in the biblical doctrine that's been upheld by orthodoxies since the beginning of the Church that God is omniscient or all-knowing. That means God knows everything exhaustively. He can't hide His knowledge from Himself. That's self-contradictory. That means He doesn't know everything. God is, according to Psalm 147.5, infinite in His understanding. That is unlimited. And in the same part of that verse it says that His power is grace. And so, likewise, in Isaiah 46 and verse 10, it says, He declares the beginning from the end, and the ancient things before they come. He knows exhaustively all things. I hope that you believe that. I hope you believe God is up there, rubbing His hands, wondering what the world is going to become of you. He knows. We trust in a God who knows all things. Likewise, Acts 15 verse 18 says, Known from eternity are all of God's works. When you think of anything that's not part of God's work, then He knows it from eternity. He knows everything that He tells us to do. When God speaks in certain perspectives from His own knowledge, He dulls out that information. That's how we have prophecy. He prophesies what shall surely come to pass, things like the coming of the prophets, things like the destruction of Jerusalem, things like the coming and the crucifixion of the Messiah. He can infallibly predict that, and there are no uncertainties or conditions in His knowledge. He knows absolutely that they will come to pass, that's why he prophesied. He raised himself against the other gods, and Isaiah said, isn't that the difference between me and other gods? They don't know if they're going to come to pass, and I do. That's the whole thrust. But now Peter speaks, and Paul speaks, or writes about the inspiration of the Spirit. Has God given them infinite understanding? Of course not. I hope you don't think that. They know true understanding, and what they know is limited, but it's not infinite. So when Peter and Paul writes to people that they see bearing the fruit of Christianity, or beginning not to bear the fruit of Christianity, it is only logical that they say, hey, you better stop or you'll perish. You better cut it out, or he'll perish. Because the way of God's salvation, God has ordained not only the end, the outcome, but also the means. And if you continue in sin, I'm telling you, you will not be saved. That first passage is on James 5. We'll get more into some of those later. But yes, there is an evil heart in departing from the living God, from whose perspective? Jesus said, my sheep, hear my voice, and they will not depart from me. The writer of Hebrews says, don't depart. What does he mean by that? You are now what appears to be in the way of grace. You are now brethren. You are part of the Christian brotherhood. You are part of the church of God. But I'm telling you, if you turn and try to be justified by words, if you try to be justified by the law, then Christ will profit you nothing. I'm telling you that. You will fall from grace. You will be detached and forfeit the very means, such as the preaching of the Word, such as prayer, such as the assembly of the saints, such as the worship of God. You will detach yourself, you will restrain yourself from the means that Christ has given. And Christ Himself claimed the means of the preaching of the Word of God. If you depart from God and you try to be justified by law, if you depart from God and His ways, you will be damned. And I can say that to an audience full of people, or a congregation full of people, because God has not given me infallible knowledge that he's going to persevere. But yet he's given revelation that we all must persevere to the end. That's a part of saving faith. And without perseverance, you will not be saved, and I will not be saved. God has ordained the end as much as the beginning. You say, well, that's just a bunch of double-talk theology. Well, it is. This is the Bible set forth those kind of things. Turn with me, please, quickly to Acts, chapter 23. In Acts, chapter 23, I'm going to skip over that example. Let's go to Acts, chapter 27. I think it's more appropriate to do it here. Acts, chapter 27, very quickly, it contexts, falls on a boat with a bunch of Romans and drunks of prisoners, and he's being taken to Rome. And they're on this voyage, and there's this really bad storm. Notice in verse 23, there stood by me this night an angel of God to whom I belong and whom I serve, saying, do not be afraid, for you must be brought before Caesar. And indeed, God has granted you all those who sail with you. God had infallible knowledge that if you're going to make it to Rome, and all the guys on the ship here are going to make it to shore safely. That is an infallible prophecy given by an angel. Now, what did Paul say? Well, it doesn't matter what we do. We can jump in the water, we can jump around, we can just forget about it, we can sit back in our lawn chairs and not worry. He sees that God has prophesied and God has promised. But notice in verse 31, Paul said to the supreme and the soldiers, unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved. He's promised their salvation to shore. But the means is, unless you stay on the ship, you cannot be saved. Now, is Paul confused? Does Paul not think that God knows everything? No, he knows that God has ordained the means as much as the enemy. Does not God likewise know the exact hour and way of your death? But yet the Book of Proverbs tells us things like walking wisdom, that you may prolong your year. Does that mean you start living like God's like, I'm going to give him another 15 years like he did Hezekiah? Did he not know he was going to do that with Hezekiah? Or from Hezekiah's perspective, and from our perspective, you walk in the ways of God, it will be well with you, and your life will be extended. Does that mean that somehow God's up there, I don't know how long he's going to live. I'm not sure how long she's going to live. Is there uncertainty in the knowledge of God? Of course not. But what does he reveal to us? You better take what appears. You better walk in wisdom, or your life will be short. We must keep in perspective that God speaks with infallible knowledge, as well as reveals to us what we are responsible for. That's why the warnings there are in passages such as 1 Thessalonians.