All right, I think we might be live. All right, we are good to go. So welcome to Deliberate Orthodoxy and our Sunday evening podcast live. We do trust that you're doing well and hope you've had a good week and looking forward to tonight and going live here. I'm trying to make sure it's up on, there we go. All right. Yeah, looking forward to tonight's discussion and our guest tonight and super thankful for him and we got our producer is out tonight. So we have a superstar to fill in for her. Steven Nutt is behind the camera tonight. He is the magician and thank God we had a magician in here about 30 minutes ago because I didn't know if this was all gonna work. And so here we are, we're ready to go. Tonight, if you wanna enter the drawing for the mug, you're gonna comment 2 Timothy 4, 3, and 4. I think I made a mistake on that a few minutes ago and so I've corrected that mistake, 2 Timothy 4, 3, and 4. And to get us started tonight and enter into the discussion, I'm gonna read that. and make a couple of comments, and then we're going to invite Sherwin on to the set. So 2 Timothy 4, 3. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. And so tonight, the title of our discussion is Word of Faith Movement or Foundation of Folly. Word of Faith Movement or Foundation of Folly. And so we talk about the Word of Faith Movement. We're talking about this name it, claim it, health and wealth and prosperity, gospel. The reason that we wanna do this is because not only is it a danger that is on the internet anymore, not only is it a danger that you find in some far off place, but I feel like it's a danger that lives where we are in a lot of ways. And so tonight what we're gonna do is bring Sherwin Williamson on with us and we're gonna get started with this conversation. So Sherwin, you come on, man. Very thankful for you. Thank you for being with us tonight, Sherwin. And just kind of get started really before the questions. Just introduce yourself. Give us a brief bio. Brief bio. So my name is Sherwin Williamson. I'm a member of Emanuel Baptist Church. I've been living in Ruston for about six years now. I work at the hospital here in town. I'm an informatics specialist. I've got a bachelor's degree in nursing from Northwestern State University. And then I went on and I got a master's degree in MDiv and Christian Apologetics from New Orleans Seminary. Married to my wonderful, beautiful wife, Elizabeth Williamson. And we have one living daughter, Grace Williamson, who is currently in Washington. And not to mention that your wife looks like a celebrity preacher. Huh? What? Well, some say that. I do not say that. I like to stay in my way. Right. Right. Right. I like to I like to make sure that people are tuning in. Sure. You know, so controversy will always get you. Right. Right. Right. Little little stirring of the pie. So Sherwin, tonight we're getting together to talk about the Word of Faith movement. Pastor Paul is in Canada right now sharing the true gospel, and so we're going to talk about a false gospel. And so just kind of diving off into the questions because we could talk for years about this subject, but we want to get it done in about 45 minutes, and we want to do our due diligence in covering the questions that we've set out to cover tonight. So without any further ado, let's do this. Define and give me a brief history of the Word of Faith movement. Yeah, so that's actually a lot more difficult than most people think it is. You know, you said it right there in the title, the Word Faith Movement. So we're talking about the Word Faith Movement. We're not talking about any particular denomination. Right. You may hear it called the Word of Faith Movement, Word Faith, the Faith Movement, Positive Confession, the Health and Wealth Gospel. The Prosperity Gospel, name it and claim it. It wears many different hoodies. Many different, even a New Apostolic Reformation. Now, one thing I think is very important before we get into actually looking at the history and some of the key doctrines is when we're talking about the word faith movement and the new apostolic reformation, that is a distinct conversation from what is called charismatic. Charismatic deals specifically with the continuation of what's often referred to as the apostolic sign gifts. And so we need to make that distinction. Because we use that a lot in the same vernacular. Yeah. Well, all word of faith is charismatic, but not all charismatic is word of faith. So I'll use an example. We have friends who are assembly of God. Most assembly of God would claim some form of being charismatic in terms of the continuation of the gifts. They are not, as a denomination, the word faith. Oh, okay. So that is very important. Um, as far as the history, uh, I think first, uh, just kind of naming some names in terms of the founders, a guy named E.W. Kenyon, uh, lived in the late 1800s to the early 1900s. He's considered the, uh, kind of the grandfather of the movement and probably the guy who, um, originated the theology of it in terms of an actual formation. And then from there, if you're not familiar with E.W. Kenyon, you're probably more familiar with the name Kenneth Hagen. Kenneth Hagen is considered the father of the Word Faith movement. Most modern proponents of the Word Faith movement kind of look to him as their father in the faith and even call him Dad Hagen. Dad Hagen. Dad Hagen, yes. In terms of the history, like I said, not all but much of the theology of Word Faith movement comes from E.W. Kenyon and his writings. He was associated with, in the late 1800s, early 1900s, what was known as faith cure preachers. And so, I mean, it's just what it sounds like. If you have enough faith, your diseases can be cured. And so he was associated with that. He was also associated somewhat with the New Thought movement, very similar to New Age, as well as Christian science. And when you really study the Word of Faith movement, you can see these influences affecting that theology. Kenyon converted at the age of 17. He actually converted in a Methodist church about two to three years later. He says that he fell away from the faith, then later rededicated and was ordained as a pastor in a free will Baptist church, where he then left that and started an independent church and kind of an itinerant healing ministry. Kenyon influenced the latter reign movement, mainly headed up by William Branham. Branham is a, that's another conversation, but very much a heretic, teaches the serpent seed doctrine and that sort of thing. And, uh, and modalism as well. And then, uh, Kenyon also influenced Hagan, uh, Hagan, um, somewhat of a local guy who was born in McKinney, Texas, um, very sickly as a child with a heart disease, um, claimed to have died, uh, several times, at least three times, uh, where he says that he witnessed the horrors of hell, uh, before coming, uh, being brought back to life. Um, and then, uh, supposedly a year later, he was miraculously cured of his heart disease. A lot of people contend he had heart trouble throughout his life. We'll talk about that here in a little bit. And then Hagen also reported Jesus appearing to him in person at least eight times. And so Hagen then took that and the influence from E.W. Kenyon and really popularized what we know now as the Word Faith Movement. All right. So this is kind of this is not within our questions, but you talked about the Kenyan born in 18, 1867. So so this word faith movement and and how it's paired with. charismatic movement in some ways. They don't really trace their roots back to the seashores of Galilee. No, no. So let's talk about the brief history or the history, kind of how they would connect things of that nature. So in terms of connecting back to the, as you put it, the seashores of Galilee, that kind of gets into their doctrine. Okay, well, they teach so you can, you can kind of categorize the doctrine of word faith and about six main categories. Okay. One of which is that there are what they call anointed apostles. All right. in function today. Okay. And so they would say that they're operating in the same anointing as the apostles of Peter, John, Paul, that sort of thing. Okay. So that's kind of where they would trace that. They do. I mean, they use the same Bible as we use, and a lot of them know their scriptures well. So do they have any apostles, post-apostle, pre-Kenyan? Are there apostles that they claim kinship with? Not that I'm aware of. There may be some, but I think that can be attributed a lot to, you know, like I said, there's not a singular denomination for this word faith. It is kind of a movement that ebbs and flows, and the majority of them until recent decades are very much independent. They're itinerant faith healers. They're itinerant preachers. They start independent churches and that sort of thing. All right, so you mentioned doctrine, right? And so what are some of the dangers of the Word-Faith movement? What are some of the ways that they kind of robed themselves in truth in some ways? So some of the dangers of the Word-Faith movement, and how do they come veiled as that angel of light? Like I said, a lot of them know their scriptures very well, and they're using the same scriptures as we are, and so any good lie has a kernel of truth in it. And so there are kernels of truth to the Word, Faith, and Doctrine, but what it is is it's Scripture taken out of context. It's Scripture taken too far. I'm sure you can see my computer here on the screen. I brought this on purpose because As we're looking at, because I want to walk through those six categories of doctrine, what I have pulled up is quotes from actual word, faith, leaders, and a lot of these names you're going to know. So word, faith, leaders, I mentioned E.W. Kenyon, I mentioned Kenneth Hagin. It's also going to be people like Kenneth Copeland. It's going to be Joel Osteen, Lakewood Church. It's going to be Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Jesse Duplantis, Creflo Dollar. Yeah, Creflo Dollar. And these are kind of your more famous guys that are on TV, but make no mistake about it. There are local churches even here in Ruston who claim, who teach word faith doctrine and claim All right. OK. In his book, I Believe in Visions, Kenneth Hagen recounts, like I said, being visited by Jesus. And so that's how they claim this anointing of apostolic secession. And if you ever question them on this, they will bring that scripture of touching God's anointing. You're probably going to hear that a lot. Well, I've heard that. Yeah. I mean, here's a quote from Hagen. According to Hagen, a minister who, quote, did not accept the message that God had given him fell dead in the pulpit. And this is what they teach their congregation. And so you're already starting to see in this first doctrine, this cult-like mentality of what the leader says cannot be questioned because you are literally questioning the anointed one of God. Benny Hinn once claimed, quote, the day is coming when those that attack us will drop dead. And so they're very serious about this touch not God's measure. Now, we could get into that discussion of apostolic secession and whatnot, but just know that that is their claim to authority, especially as a leader in church. They are the end all, be all, and they cannot be questioned. Right. And we will come back to that because I think you find some present day dangers for us in that. We'll come back to that toward the end of our discussion. But if you want to continue walking through some of their doctrine. Yeah, another doctrine is that God speaks words of faith with his mouth. Yes. Let me repeat that. God speaks words of faith with his mouth. So the whole idea of the word faith or word of faith movement is that faith is this tangible thing that brings about and creates reality. and your words are a vessel or a vehicle that carries that faith to its end to accomplish what it is. And so they attribute this same thing to God. Fred Price, another WordFaith guy says, quote, God believed in his heart that what he said with his mouth would come to pass, and he dared to say it. Yeah, I mean, I feel almost in danger just repeating some of these quotes. Right, right. I mean, it feels blasphemous. It makes you a little nauseous in your stomach. Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah. And again, getting into reputation, which we'll talk about that later. I mean, I think that should be pretty obvious. God does not believe in his heart or anything. He is omnipotent. He is omniscient. He is sovereign. God does, in the words of Justin Peters, God can do whatever he jolly well pleases. And that's what he does. And so what I want to do is kind of, because I feel like we're going to sit in this discussion for a few minutes. I want to combine questions two and three because I think you've kind of started to answer some of them already. So we're talking about dangers of the word faith movement, how they veil themselves with truth, and then phrases and religious talk that a person should be aware of. And we're talking about some of that, you know, even now. And so we're just going to kind of camp out there for a few minutes and just discuss that back and forth. uh the doctrine how they bail themselves some of the the the speech that they use as we kind of walk through this part of the discussion yeah there are a lot of buzzwords that you can right and watch out for and we'll talk about these as we walk through the doctrines i'll try to get some out So I've talked about the anointed apostles. God speaks words of faith with his mouth. Human beings were created to be gods. Yes. Yeah. Human beings were created to be gods. They teach this. This is what you often hear is the little gods doctrine. They will try to make a distinction between God, the creator, big G God, but humans were created to be little G gods. And they even take it a step further. They say that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. Well, amen, right? Yes. Amen. And so are we. Yes. And not amen. And not amen. Right. And you see, so that's what I'm saying. There's an element of truth to it. Owe me. Yes. But then they take it too far. And again, guys, don't take my word for this. Kenneth Hagin quote, we don't understand the Bible with our minds. It is spiritually understood and its truth may even contradict human reasoning or physical evidence. Because you are God's incarnate, according to them, you are a spiritual being, and therefore the truth is spiritually discerned. You need to disconnect your mind. So when you hear a word-faith teacher say something that you know contradicts Scripture, and you intellectually see this, basically combine those two doctrines, the anointed apostle, spiritually discerned. You need to set aside your intellect and just listen to what the teacher says. Again, Hagen, He says, since both God and humans are spirits, human beings were created in God's class. In other words, we are of the same essence as God. Kenneth Copeland, when I read my Bible where he says, talking about God, I am, I just smile and say, yes, I am too. I mean, that's that's blasphemy. Right. And so let's sit there for a second. This is how you get into the name it, claim it. Yes. Areas of their doctrine, like because I am. on the same level as Him, I am guaranteed some things when I serve Him. Yes. You have the same authority. Just as God can speak things into existence by exercising His faith, so can you because you're of the same essence, same class as God. You will even often hear them say, we call things that are not as if they are. And again, that element of truth, That's actually a verse from Romans, but it's a misquoted verse. It does not say we call things that are not as if they are. It says God calls things that are not as if they are. Right. And so you see these little instances of, like you said a while ago, little nuggets of truth, and not enough that you're going to say, well, that's totally wrong. Yeah, I think I've heard that before. So when they're doing their evangelism, You include these nuggets of truth to people who aren't really in their Bibles a lot. They're kind of fringe type Christian. No, fringe type religious people in some ways. And then they start quoting those things, and they start saying those things, repeating those things, because I want to be blessed like this dude says I can be blessed. Well, and that's the thing with the word faith movement, more commonly known as the prosperity gospel. It's appealing to the flesh. I mean who doesn't want that type of authority? Who doesn't want to be blessed? Who doesn't want to receive material and financial blessings for serving God? And that's what they offer. But it's not biblical. And that's the thing. We need to major in what God's Word says. If we are to be equipped for every good work, as Paul wrote to Timothy, then that comes through the Word, through the study of God's Word. And so if we're going to recognize error, then we need to major on the truth. Again, Kenneth Hagin, along the same lines of you being God, Kenneth Hagin says that Adam was originally created as the God of this world. Man's original nature gave him status, and again, quote, of equality with God. This is direct from Hagin. Kenneth Copeland, Adam was, quote, God manifested in the flesh. There has only ever been one person who was God manifested in the flesh, and that's Jesus Christ. It was not Adam. But, and again, this kernel of truth, right? So we read in Genesis that God created man in his image. We are created in the Imago Dei, right? That's what they latch on to. Creflo Dollar, he, and you can look this up on YouTube. He has this sermon that he was preaching where he's talking about the Imago Dei, and he starts to talk about it, and God said, let us create man, and then he stops. And he's like, let me ask you something. When dogs get together, what do dogs produce? Well, they produce dogs. When cats get together, what do cats produce? They produce cats. When horses get together, you see where I'm going with this, right? He does this about three or four times, and then he says, now when the Godhead gets together, What does it produce? Little gods. And he says that where the Trinity, the Trinitarian Godhead in Genesis is saying, let us create man in our image. He says that that means that man is created in the essence of God and as a little God. Right. And then we will revert back when we make statements like this, that when we are trying to evangelize and and create doctrine, then we go back to the anointed apostles and we don't touch the Lord's anointed and we don't We're afraid of the she bears, you know, we're afraid of all of those things at that point, you know, and we're instructed to be afraid of those things. Now, here's here's I'm going off topic a little bit and I want to I want to stay fairly general here. We see some of these things creep into. our evangelical circles at times even, right? And this is not calling people out time, but we do want people to be aware when you start hearing this language of, if you're going to preach the Bible and say, don't touch the Lord's anointed, then I'm going to tell you Well, when you preach the Bible, be like the Bereans because Paul said that. And so then we have to determine what was the context of those statements at that point. And so let's talk a little bit for just a few minutes about kind of the how we see these things bleed over and how we see them introduced into evangelical circles in a lot of ways. Yeah. I've mentioned before, word faith is not a denomination, and because it's not a denomination, it allows the theology to put tentacles into all denominations. You just got to listen for the buzzwords. Think about the doctrines we've talked about so far. When you hear that, you know, touch not God's anointed. What do you mean by that? Right. Well, God spoke to me and said, well, what do you mean by God? How how did God speak to you? Right. And does is what is about to come out of your mouth is contradict what the written word says. Those buzzwords of, you know, oh, well, I feel like I'm getting sick today. Oh, we're not going to accept that. Right. We're not going to claim that. Right. So when you when you hear those buzzwords, just Not even saying that the person that says that is necessarily adhering to word-faith theology, but it permeates so much that the language and the thinking will kind of seep into you a lot of times without knowing. And it does so primarily through media. The word-faith movement got extremely popular in the 1970s through the Trinity Broadcasting Network, TBN, which is still going today. Joseph Prince, Joel Osteen, those guys are on TBN, and they're still promoting this theology through that. And now you've got it in YouTube. You've got it in TikTok, Snapchat, and whatever else the kids are using these days. I can't keep up with all that. But it's at your fingertips 24-7. And as soon as you start looking at it, the algorithm is such that it's going to continue to put this in front of you. But it's also in our music. When you look at contemporary Christian music, and I'm I'm not condemning all contemporary. Whoa, sir. When whoa, not hear me say that. But the majority of the songs that are produced through contemporary Christian music come from what are often called the big three. And that's going to be Bethel. Yes. In Redding, California, which is Bill Johnson. Extremely word faith. Again, you can all the stuff is available on the Internet. Don't take my word for it. Hillsong Church. Again, the main one based in Australia. Again, predominantly Word, Faith, Prosperity, Theology, and then Elevate. Yeah. Yeah. Stephen Furtick. I've got a quote somewhere. Actually, I think I've got it right here. Yeah. Stephen Furtick, quote, when God told Moses, I am, he was trying to get Moses to see that you are as I am. He taught this in a sermon. He actually has another sermon where he's spouting on, and he says, I am God Almighty. I'm talking about himself. Now, in the context, if we're going to be gracious, and we should be gracious, you could attribute that to being just a misspeaking because he was caught up in the moment, just a misspeaking. But this quote was slow and deliberate, and this is what he was teaching. One and this is where you see it creep into our circles in a lot of ways and and because at points in time there were. there were seals of approval put on this guy. And people will go back to, even though some of the people who put seals of approval initially would not put seals of approval now, some would, some wouldn't, but people go back to that. And then you talk about the elevation worship and things of that nature. And that's one thing, again, this is not contemporary Christian music bashing night, but If somebody hears a song and they say, who is that song by? I'm going to go listen to more music by that person because I like the way they do things. Well, then what's to say that the leap to the sermons does not come next? A lot of people would argue that and say that that's not going to happen. Right. Anecdotally, I have I know people personally and have read stories of others who have done that very thing. They're new to church. They hear a song. Oh, I really like them. Who's that by? Oh, that's by Jesus Culture. Jesus Culture is a group that came out of Bethel, and I think they're probably more out there than Bethel is. But anyways, and they then go look them up and then they get to the sermons. And again, not every song that even comes to the churches are bad, but we are naive if we think that the theology of the people writing the music does not influence not only the lyrics, but the structure of what it's like. Well, I mean, you look at our faith, right? Well, this morning, we did the Lord's Supper, and at the end of the Lord's Supper, we sang doxology, which is music teaching us orthodox teaching. We sing victory in Jesus. We sing amazing grace. These are songs that shape theology, drive you to the Bible in a lot of ways, even in what we believe. We're shaped by the music that we listen to. Music has always been a main teacher of theology throughout church history, and we see this. We teach our children theology. You may not have ever thought about this, but I guarantee you, if you're a believing parent or if you've grown up in church, I guarantee you that you have taught your child, even your baby, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Now, you may be thinking, when have I ever done this? Well, Jesus loves me. This I know. How do you know? Because the Bible tells me so. What you're doing, even in that lyric, is you're communicating the love that Jesus has for his children, and you're pointing to the scripture as the authoritative foundation for how you know that. And that's a nursery. And if you don't think that, then you go to the B-I-B-L-E. Yes, that's the book for me. I stand alone, on the word of God, the B-I-B-L-E Bible. Amen. Yes. But you see how this infiltrates, and you see the danger as we've talked about this little God's theory, and you'll even see dominion theory in this. I don't have time to really get into what that is. But give kind of a brief... Yeah, well Kenneth Copeland says that God is the biggest loser in the Bible. That is a direct quote from Kenneth Copeland. Now, what he means by that… What he means by that, and this is Dominion Theory. What they teach is that God created, and by virtue of creation, he had authority over all things. God gave his authority up and gave it to Adam. When Adam sinned and fell, Adam forfeited that authority to Satan. So at that time, they will teach this. Kenneth Copeland teaches that God had no authority to intervene on earth unless someone gave him permission. And so God is looking to and fro for a way to get back in, to take back this authority. Well, lo and behold, Mary comes along. She's willing to give permission. Right. For the incarnation. So Jesus is incarnate. Jesus has lived a sinless life and then he dies and they teach that he actually went to hell. Right. And basically this idea of Satan is dragging him to hell. He's there for three days. He's tormented. And then, surprise, guess what? It's actually the Son of God who's sinless. And so they say that Satan violated some cosmic law, and so on a technicality, Jesus then gets that authority back. But somehow or another, they teach that authority goes to man, even though Jesus says in the Great Commission, all authority on heaven and earth has been given to me. Right. Right. And so you see in this twisting of scripture. Right. And again, this plays out. Look, here's here's some more quotes, because I think these are important to hear what they teach from their own mouth. Again, Kenneth Hagin, and he was actually accused of plagiarizing E.W. Kenyon with this quote. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth. Already read you the verdict quote. Kenneth Copeland allegedly quoting Jesus. This is one of the times that Jesus appeared to him. He says, quote, and this is Jesus supposedly talking. Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God. Jesus talking to Copeland. They crucified me for claiming that I was God, but I didn't claim I was God. I just claimed I walked with him and that he was in me. And then Copeland adds, hallelujah. and then Jesus again to Copeland, that's what you're doing, end quote. So putting there, Copeland goes on to claim that God told him that if he knew or had known the word of God as much as Jesus did, then he could have done and accomplished what Jesus accomplished. In other words, Copeland could have been your Lord and Savior. Right. And I saw the movie preview. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a movie preview online that you can go watch of Kenneth Copeland as an action star. Yes. Throwing that out there. There you go. He was an actor. This this next quote, this is probably one of my more lengthy quotes. This is from a local teacher right here in Ruston quote. A spirit of faith doesn't sit back and let things happen. A spirit of faith takes a step forward and says, I'm here now. I'll say what's going to happen. If the disciples would have had a spirit of faith, they would have turned to the wind and the waves and said, shut up and not even bother Jesus about it. Here's where it gets really good. Sometimes you don't even need to bother Jesus about it. You need to take control and command because Jesus is not in control. Did you know that? God is not in control. I know it's cute. I know it's an Instagram post. It's in songs, but it's unbiblical." And that's here in Ruston. Yeah. So that leads me into the last question. And when I say last question, I mean, obviously we're kind of moving back and forth through this thing as we talk through the questions. So is this something that we just read about or watch on TV? Or as in this quote, is it a danger that we're facing within our city and parish in the context that we live in? Yeah, there are blatantly word-faith theology teaching churches. And I'll just use Ruston as an example because that's where we're at in Ruston and the surrounding areas. And then beyond that, there are word-of-faith adjacent or word-of-faith influence. We're talking about the media and how the theology can creep in. I mentioned TBN. A lot of our older generation grew up with tapes and media of pastors that could be trusted. And so there's an assumption that if a person claims to be Christian or a pastor or a leader, then they can be trusted. So if I see them on TV, if I see Osteen, if I see Joseph Prince, if I see Joyce Meyer, who Beth Moore calls her mother of the faith, Joyce Meyer teaches this word faith theology, then they're watching this in their homes. And then again, the social media and the songs, Um, the theology creeping in, um, you know, I grew up in a, in a small town about 40 miles from here. There's again, a blatantly word faith church. Um. in that town. I mean, we're talking about a population of about 250 people, and the very Word Faith Church exists. Very influential. The scary thing of Word Faith for me is something that we mentioned a while ago, and I said we would come back around to, are these Word Faith statements that are mixed into what I would consider to be fairly doctrinally sound churches, you know, as far as Baptist doctrine, things of that nature, such as, you know, don't question the preacher. Now, I understand the heart behind that statement, but if you If you can't compare someone's life with the Bible, if you're not given that access to compare someone's life with the Bible, then that's not healthy. God spoke to me. We see that thrown around. And I know there are many times where I hear that, that that's not what they mean. But we throw that around and we throw that out there and we almost link ourself to those people in those moments and give credence to what they're saying. Yeah, it's the idea that if we lived in a perfect world where everyone was following Christ and everyone in your circle was doctrinally and theologically sound, then those phrases and those words would cause no alarm because we would understand what we mean by them. But we don't live in that world. And so again, when you hear people say those buzzwords, I'm not even saying that they understand 100 percent, but that should at the very least throw a flag up and you need to listen closely to what the next words are. So like the not questioning your pastor or elder, you should be able to trust A master and your elder. And they are spending time in prayer and study and preparing the word to feed the sheep as under shepherds. But anytime that I teach a class, anytime that I stand behind the pulpit, I know you would say the same. And I know Paul's not here, but I know Paul would say the same and Stephen as well. preached a wonderful sermon for us this morning. If you had a question about something they said, you could go to them in private. You could come to me in private, and there would be no issue. Now, again, there's a way. Don't stand up in the middle of the congregation and call it a saying and be belligerent, but if you have a legitimate question, hey, you said something that I didn't quite understand, or could you explain this a little more? No pastor who is biblical and worth his salt is going to have an issue at all with you coming to them with that question. Right. And so as we think about this being something that we're not just confronted with on TV and we're not just confronted with on the internet now and on social media, we're confronted with it here where we are. What are think of how I want to ask this. What are some things that we can look for, give an apologetic to? So let's take this the doctrine that you can speak things into existence. Let's give an apologetic for that as Christians, you know, that someone could say, well, I hear what you're saying, but the Bible says this, let's consider it in this manner, you know, so. Yeah. And I think it comes down to knowing your word, knowing what the Bible says. And for the interview watching who don't know, just talking about giving an apologetic or giving an apology, that just simply means to give a defense of the faith, Christian apologetics. Trying to introduce new vocabulary, you know what I'm saying? I'm here for it. I love those $20 party words. But yeah, so when we hear these things, we speak things into existence. Again, Nine times out of ten, that's going to be a verse taken out of context. I already mentioned the verse in Romans, we call things that are not as if they are. Well, it actually says God does. We are created in God's image, and therefore we have the same authority as God. Well, no, we are created in God's image, but we are not of God's essence. We are not on the same level. We are not of the same being as God. To use an analogy, it would be like me creating a mirror that mirror reflects my image, and hopefully it does it accurately if it's not flawed. We could get into the fallen sin, but if it's not flawed, it's going to reflect my image accurately. But that mirror is not of the same essence or being that I am. So we need to understand this. They'll go to verses like You know, well, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, you know, well, looking in context, Jesus is not speaking literally there. He's speaking with hyperbole. He's demonstrating the content or the object of faith and what can result from that. He's given an illustration of how faith is a small thing. that then grows in the believer, but it is not a vehicle through which we can create things. And if you really want to get like super nerdy, all throughout scripture, there are particular Hebrew verbs, is one. So Genesis 1.1, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. That's Barashit, Barah, Elohim. Barah has the connotation of a creation out of nothing, ex nihilo, right? Speaking, nothing exists, God speaks, and there's something he barad. Well, throughout scripture, that verb is only applied to God. There is another verb that is applied to man creating, because we do create, but it's taking raw materials and fashioning them into something else. It's more innovation. And so just in that, you can see we're not on the same level that God is. But just know your scripture, know your word, and just say, I heard you say this. Can you show me where that's in scripture? And let's see the context. Right, right, right, right. This is more important to me, not because of the word-faith movement, because I'm not involved in the specific word-faith movement on a regular basis, but I am involved in vocabulary. of the word faith movement on a very regular basis, which I think desensitizes us to the effects of that. Just a story. I was in the back of a church one time, a Baptist church, and there had been some people that had left one church and gone to another church, and not saying whether that was right or wrong or not, but the pastor of that church told me if If those people want God to continue working in their life, they'll stop leaving this church. I don't think that this person was saying that as a word-faith type deal, but that is a word-faith scenario. It is. That's the doctrine of sowing and reaping is what they go. And is that a biblical doctrine? Generally speaking, yes. What you sow, what type of seed you sow is what type of crop you're going to get back. And so if you're sowing godliness, if you're kind to other people, then generally speaking, people are going to reciprocate. It's not 100% guaranteed, but generally speaking, but they will take even verses like that. And the interesting thing, it's always applied to finances. If you sow your seed into my ministry of money, so you sow a hundred dollars, God's going to give you a thousand. And they will fleece the flock in this to the point of, praying on elderly women, which scripture specifically speaks against, praying on the widows, to the point of, and I've heard word of faith teachers say this, even if you don't have the money in your bank account right now, step out and exercise your faith and use your credit card. And you're telling people who already don't have financial means to go into further debt to give you money for the sake of this idea that they're going to get some in return. I mentioned that church from my hometown, and this gets into some of the other doctrines of God wants you healthy and wealthy now. There was a couple. I was actually sitting in a service. I was not a member there I had been trying to witness to a gentleman who had set in on some things I was teaching. And the agreement was he would come to what I taught if I come to one of their services. They had a guest preacher coming in. So I did. I kept my word. And there was a couple there who had a small child who was ill, and they had driven hours, no money, to use their credit card to give this man money. in hopes that God would bless them materially and their child would be healed. It's terrible for one, it's unbiblical, and it's preying on vulnerable people. And again, they get this, they will twist scripture. Kenneth Hagin, again, some more quotes. Quote, Jesus has already borne them, talking about your diseases, by his stripes you were healed. get your believing in line with what God's word said. And then Hagen would also go on to say, even when he had a headache, he would just simply say, in Jesus name, I don't have a headache because we're not going to claim that. And the headache will go away. The interesting thing in all of this is Hagen died of heart disease. Jan Crouch died of, I believe, cancer. It was either cancer or a stroke. Kenneth Copeland has a pacemaker. There's a local, and again, the local faith teacher here, I've made the comments on some things that they taught before. Never trust a faith healer that wears glasses and is balding. Right. Right. Kenneth Copeland does his hair. And so you see the things that they're teaching, they can't even live. Right. And if you want to test this, and then I encourage you to just track Kenneth Copeland's life. Copeland has said that he has made a covenant with God and that he will live to 120 years old. Goodness gracious. Yeah. So, let's see if you make some time for it. Right. Okay. So, let's do this to kind of begin to wrap up. We had mentioned, like we said, once you get into this, it's hard to encapsulate this into 45 minutes or 50 minutes. I've taught on this subject before. I didn't do it justice teaching it over three weeks. Right. So, let's give a very brief explanation of the six doctrines and and then kind of you make some closing comments and then we'll go to the the finality of the show tonight. So just you know to kind of rehash the doctrines and and these are the things that you need to look out for. Right. These are the things you need to look out for the teachings. So anointed impossible and prophets for today. Now, again, we're not I'm not getting into the the cessationist versus continuationist aspect, but just know that that is a source of teaching of authority for a word faith teacher. God speaks words of faith with his mouth. Human beings were created to be gods. Jesus is God incarnate. So are we. Jesus died spiritually and was born again. And again, I'll quote Kenneth Hagin with this one quote. Why did he need to be begotten or born? Because he became like we are separated from God. Yeah. Now. When scripture talks about us being separated from God, it's because of our sin and because of the sin nature that we inherit from Adam. Hagen is saying that Jesus in his birth was exactly like that, separated from God. Because he tasted spiritual death for every man, and I'm still quoting, his spirit, his inner man went to hell in our place. Jesus is the first person ever to be born again. Now we know from John 3 what Jesus means when he tells Nicodemus, one must be born again to enter the kingdom. We're talking about a spiritual birth. We're talking about someone who is separated, who is dead in their sands, according to Ephesians 2, being granted new life. They're being born again. And Hagin says Jesus was this. Again, speaking words of faith like God does because of that little God's doctrine. God wants us to be healthy and wealthy now. One local Word of Faith teacher actually says that Jesus never got sick in his earthly ministry. Never got sick. Now, can one dogmatically say that Jesus got sick? Well, Scripture doesn't record that. It also doesn't record that John got sick. But Jesus was born a man. He is truly God and truly man. He is the second person of the Trinity, the Eternal Son. incarnate in flesh, and he grew in his knowledge of God and with man. He grew in his standing. It stands to reason because we know that he got hungry. We know that he got tired. It stands to reason he probably got sick. Well, in Hebrews chapter 4, he's tempted in all ways like we are without sin, and I think when these allergies kick in, I want to question God and everything else about, you know, why? Why the word? Why the curse? Yeah. How long? Right. Right. This irritating call. Right. But ultimately, when we're talking about the word faith movement and this theology, remember these doctrines, look out for them. But here's just to encapsulate this. If you walk away with nothing else, look out for anything. that has a low view of God and a high view of man. I hope you've noticed everything that I've said, every quote that I've said. It brings God down, and it elevates man, and it either puts them on equal ground, or even in some cases, it puts man above God. who's another WordFaith guy. He was teaching on a television series with Benny Hinn, and he's teaching on prayer. And again, Myles Monroe's book on prayer is in a local bookstore here in Ruston. He was teaching on prayer. He says that prayer, if I remember the quote correctly, prayer is earthly license for heavenly intervention. that God, even today, God cannot do anything on earth because he does not have authority unless man gives him permission, and that, in essence, is what prayer is. This is blasphemy, and these are things that we need not play around with. These are things we need to watch out for. This is poison that we need to do away with. Brother Steven, we're getting ready to wrap up. Were there any, I've looked on Facebook to see if there were any questions. If you have any questions, you can feel free to reach out to Sherwin. Yeah, absolutely. You reach out to me, I'll direct you to Sherwin. And so, man, thank you so much for this tonight. And again, we could talk about this for a while, but we don't have a while, so. I do wanna read something. We'll read. Before we. I'm not gonna tell you not to read the Bible. Yeah, right. After everything we just talked about. So this is 1 Timothy chapter 6, and so we've really talked about, especially in modern times, your people like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, they believe and teach these things like little gods, but they're going to major on the prosperity aspect of it and accumulating wealth. This is what Paul writes to Timothy in 1 Timothy 6, beginning in verse 6. He says, but godliness actually is a means of great gain. So good so far, right? When accompanied by contentment, For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some, by longing for it, have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. I don't know of a single word faith teacher, including the ones locally who are not constantly bragging about their wealth, their cars, their possessions, their planes, yet are never content with what they have. Right. We do have a question that I just saw come up and we're going to do that real quick. And I think there's a pretty quick answer to this. Adam Handy, is it wrong to pray for healing or for material things we need with confidence? No, it's not wrong at all. As a matter of fact, we are commanded to do these things. James writes, if any among you are sick, let them be brought to the elders, anointed with oil, prayed over that God may heal. And even praying for material possessions, I pray and I'm thankful that God has provided me with a job and a home and a vehicle. The difference between a biblical understanding of praying for these things and the word faith is that I am petitioning God for my necessities, which I'm commanded to do, the Lord's Prayer. Give us this day our daily bread. I am petitioning God, but at the end of the day, I am submitting to his will. I am content with what he is pleased to give me. The word faith theology teaches basically that I am exercising my faith, and in exercising my faith, God has now become beholden to me. It's really at its root paganism. It turns God into a cosmic vending machine to where if you put the right thing in and the right combination, you're going to get one out of it. All right. Good deal. Well, the moment that everybody's been waiting for, the end of the show. This is why all billion people watch tonight. You know what I'm saying? So, bro, Steven, if you'll... I'm going to be honest with you. The only reason I agreed to come on this was because I was told that every guest gets a coffee mug. Right. Right. The drinking vessel. I don't know if y'all can see this. This is the greatest coffee mug that has ever been made. but here we are. Ain't no doubt. Yeah. You know? All right. So we're going to, we're going to shake this thing up here. Shake it up, shake it up, shake it up. All right. One lucky winner. Draw one. What we got? Uh, Chris Frick. Chris Frick. All right. So Chris Frick, you are the winner tonight and we will get you your mug. All right. You just put the coffee in it. So thank you so much for being with us tonight, Sherwin. Thank you guys for listening. And like I said, if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us. And we know that tonight you know, you step over there, there are a couple of these things where, where we've stepped over into the people have some personal feelings toward these things. We, you know, we talked about translations, um, a while back and then this, you know, when we're talking about family and, you know, addiction and things of that nature, everybody, you know, we, you get people on board, but, uh, these are some things that questions can arise. Yeah. And these things are personal. to me as well. I have family members who very much adhere to workday theology and even to some extent grew up not necessarily in but around some of that content. So it is personal. It's things that should be handled with care and compassion. And like I said, if anybody has any questions, want to talk about it more, you can DM me on Facebook. If you have my number, feel free to message me or Chad can get you in touch. I'm an open book. I love coffee. You buy me a cup of coffee, we'll sit and talk about anything you want. Alright, alright guys, thank you so much. Join us next week. Paul will be back next week and so I know he's excited about that. He said to trust me for two straight weeks and so that's not easy for him. Alright, and so we'll be back with him next week and we'll see you then. Thank you.