we're seeking to implement here at Emanuel Baptist Church. So biblical counseling defined. Our outline's pretty simple this morning. What I want to do this week is I want to explain what biblical counseling is not. And I have seven points that I'd like to discuss with you under what biblical counseling is not. And then next week, what we're going to look at is what is biblical counseling or what it is. Now, before we do that, I need to make a couple of preliminary statements about biblical counseling as a ministry of the church. The things that Robert, myself, and Jeremy will be seeking to teach you over the next 10 weeks, I think it's safe to say, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Robert, will be considered the official position of the church on this subject. All right? All four elders espouse the views that will be taught in this module. Anyone who is interested in participating in the ministry at a formal level must be in substantial agreement in terms of the principles and practices of biblical counseling as defined by this course. Is that clear? Make sense? For those of you who are not in substantial agreement, I have three things that I need to point out here first. Although you're free to disagree, you will not be allowed to participate in the ministry at a more formal level for obvious reasons. Secondly, we would ask that you respect the position of the leadership and the direction we are seeking to lead the church despite your disagreements. And then the third thing I would say is we would ask that you be open to discussing your disagreements with the elders when necessary and appropriate. All right, we need to know where each other stands. We're talking about unifying as a church body. So let's begin by seeking to define what biblical counseling is. And as I said earlier, we're going to deal this morning with what it's not. All right, and the first thing is biblical counseling is not mere advice or counseling. Biblical counseling is not mere advice or counsel. Christians have a tendency to confuse biblical counseling with biblical advice. Brothers and sisters, wouldn't you say that that's been the case in your experience in the church? Biblical counseling is much more involved than the mere giving of biblical advice. Mere biblical counsel or advice may require one or, at the most, two sit-downs and it is usually has no structure or accountability. It's pretty much people wanting to hear what we think about a matter or what we would do in particular situations. And some examples of those, that dynamic would be things like the purchase of a car or a home or choosing a certain neighborhood or school, a job or a significant other, if you will. But the point is, biblical counseling is much more involved and requires more time, energy, and work. It has structure, it has accountability and homework, and may go for several months. So we need to discern that first and foremost. I want to read a quote here from J. Adams concerning this distinction. That biblical counseling is not mere advice or counsel. It is vital to distinguish between the type of situations just described and others in which there are really no large problems at all. Rarely will persons who have relatively few problems seek out a counselor. In most instances, such people lead happy, fruitful Christian lives, enjoying their families and engrossed in the work of the Lord. And the furthest idea from their minds is the notion that they might need counseling. Individuals like this may continue to rejoice so long as they remember the scripture, let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. Isn't that good? Yet every once in a while, persons who are making it become concerned, perhaps needlessly, about some matter. Perhaps it is finances, it may be a matter concerning the spiritual growth of their children, etc. Or they may have fallen into some sin or problem from which they find it difficult to extricate themselves. In such instances, counsel is necessary. But often the need for extensive counseling is not. Perhaps one or two sessions or even a brief word of counsel will be all that is necessary. That word of encouragement, the reminder of what God requires with a loving kind review was just what they needed. Basically, because of the fundamental life set and because of the firm commitment to the word of God. Listen, brother, this sort of counselee almost immediately will respond to counsel. Catch that. They're quick to obey. They don't need continual counseling because of that ability to obey quickly. There is no need to extend counsel to a process of counseling in such cases. Okay, that's the distinction that I'm trying to make. Okay, the process of counseling and the mere giving advice or the mere counsel to someone. Okay? Prayer, following up the brief session or two, and a word of inquiry and passing. Is everything going well, Wilson? Now and then is what is indicated. Counselors must be sure not to enlarge problems for counselees, finding difficulties where they do not exist. All right? So biblical counseling is not mere advice for counsel. Do you have any questions or comments about that first point? Chuck? So some of the things you mentioned at first, like a new car or seeking a spouse, those could involve Biblical counseling if there were other issues related. Yes, very good. So that would be an example of something that would typically be advice, but it also could be more extensive. Yes. All right. Anyone else? You know, occasionally, Pastor Robert and I, and I'm sure Jeremy and David as well now, We'll have people who will come to us for counseling who don't need it. We'll set up a session and we'll sit them down and maybe two weeks later we'll inform them that you really don't need counseling. What you need is just some encouragement or a word of advice or a mere counsel, if you will. Biblical counseling is not mere giving advice or counsel. Point number two, biblical counseling is not micromanagement. Biblical counseling is not micromanagement. Many brethren will come to counseling thinking that we are going to tell them what they need to do in a wrong sense, meaning They will want us to decide things for them or do their thinking for them. And of course, this is not good. It can lead to spiritual abuse. And I'm sure many of God's people have been in that situation. Okay. It may be under an authoritarian leadership that has heyday with people who are like this. These personality types, if you will, or these young naive Christians who don't know better. And they'll get into a situation to where the people who are giving the counsel will tell them what to do in a wrong sense. And you'll hear Pastor Briggs and I often tell you we're not here to micromanage your lives. You'll hear Pastor Briggs say, you know, you don't come in here and you take your head off and put it under the seat. You've got to think for yourself. Because that's what Christ wants for you. He wants you to be biblically thinking people. He wants you to be biblically educated for yourselves. All right? And so do your pastors who loved you. Now, I want to make a distinction at this point, and I think Ernesto was seeking to bring this up at one point in a question that he had about the law of God. But Mr. Adams, in his book, has a section here that I would like to read in your hearing. And this has to do with recognizing the authority of the counselor. OK, what is our limits when we give you counsel? All right. And I think Jeremy will be taking this up more extensively in his lesson. Counselors must learn to distinguish clearly between good advice that they think grows out of biblical principles and those principles themselves. All right. The latter. You have no grounds for divorce. It would be sin. Now, let me say this, brother. That's in the book. I'm not bringing that up to start controversy here. OK, that just happens to be the example that he's using here. OK, let me read that again. The latter. You have no grounds for divorce. It would be sin. They may enforce with the utmost authority the former. Why not set up a conference table in order to begin to learn how to speak the truth and love? They must present with more caution. It is possible that one's deductions from scriptural principles may be false. The counselor must always allow such deductions to remain open for question by the counselee in a way that he cannot allow a plain commandment of God to be questioned. A conference table may be useful, may grow out of biblical principles, but cannot be commanded. Speaking the truth in love must be. Since the scriptures are the standard by which a counselor's authority is known and regulated, it need not be feared." Now, I want to give you an exercise because Mr. Adams gives several examples to highlight the point that he's making here and the point that I'm trying to make. But he gives several statements. And he challenges the reader to determine which are proper and which are improper concerning the counselor's authority. And I'd like to challenge you here. Confess this sin to God and forsake it. Does the counselor have the authority to command that? Confess this sin to God and forsake it. Yes or no? Hands, please. Okay, why yes? Yes, because God Word says that we need to forsake sin. Very good. That's the counselor's authority. It's based upon the Word of God. Here's another one. Sell your car and pay off your loan. Now. Of course not. Why not? Okay, so if men are telling you to do that in a counseling context, something's wrong, brothers and sisters. That's to put up a red flag. Alright? You must study the Scriptures and pray regularly. Okay? We'd all agree, right? Every morning you must read the Bible one half hour and pray for 20 minutes. We're laughing because we agree with that, right? Okay. One way to begin to implement the commandment to love your neighbor is to make a list of items you know will please her and do one each day this week. What do you say about that? Okay. You must break off that homosexual relationship today. Yes. You should get a full yes going in. Yes. Okay. Amen. Thank you. Tranquilizers will do you no good. Don't take any more. We have no right to say that in counseling to people. Okay. Your worry must go. You are going to have to learn how to focus your concern on today rather than tomorrow. What did Jesus say in Matthew 5? That's fair. Worry, sin. Catch up on your ironing by the next session. Amen. Obey God's command, whether you feel like it or not. Okay, so you get the point. So biblical counseling is not micromanagement, brothers and sisters. BC is not an autonomous, excuse me, ministry. You know, biblical counseling is not designed to be done apart from the church. And when this is done, and I kind of want to emphasize this here because there are a lot of parachurch organizations that claim to be biblical counseling. All right. And I want to kind of walk a tightrope here because I don't want to speak ill about those parachurch organizations. I'm not saying they're wrong. I think some of them are good and they have their purpose, but biblical counseling has never been intended by God to operate apart from the church. That's the point I'm seeking to make here. When this is done, counseling begins to morph into something else that may be called biblical counseling, but in reality, it lacks the substance of biblical counseling. And I'll speak more about that under what is biblical counsel or biblical counseling. Now, beware, brothers and sisters of parachurch substitutes here. I do need to say that. Beware of parachurch organizations that claim to be biblical counseling. All right? I'm not saying you are not free to use them, but most parachurch organizations are rooted in psychology. One. Okay? This is what I mean by beware. These are the things that you need to discern if you're going to use that field. They lack the accountability of the church context and are self-appointed. Okay? You need to know that about parachurch organizations oftentimes. Okay? They do lack the authority of the church. It's men and women who have gotten their degrees, set up their ministry, and call it biblical counseling. And a lot of it is done apart from the church. Do you understand? They promote behavior modification rather than true mortification. So if you're interested in behavior modification, that's fine. But just recognize that that's not true mortification. So, if you have some problem that you need to deal with, or habit, or whatever, and you go to that counselor, and you get that corrected, he might modify that behavior for you, but the Bible teaches mortification. Alright? And we're going to get into that in more detail as we talk about what biblical counseling is. But I need to say that, brothers and sisters, because it's a reality. It's the truth. And we have to face it. Alright? And I did kind of warn you that this topic is a hot topic, but I believe we're mature Christians here and we can talk about these things without beating each other up. All right. Biblical counseling is actually dependent upon the church for its success. Church discipline would be a case in point. So the church is commanded by God to practice church discipline. And when we counsel you, brothers and sisters, we do use church discipline as a recourse. We have to, we're commanded to. Parachurch organizations don't do that. Do you know of any parachurch organizations that practice church discipline? You see the problem? You understand? Also, once counseling has been performed, it needs a support group that can reiterate the same principles enforced in counseling. The Bible calls that the church, the public preaching teaching ministry, Wednesday night prayer service, Bible studies that we develop within it. That's your support group, brothers and sisters. You understand? And haven't you used the church that way? When you've been going through hard times and whatnot, and you might have needed some counsel, and you've gone to the pastors, and he's kind of helped you to understand and straighten up your perspective, and then you get back into church life, and before you know it, you're sailing again. And your sail's up. And you're glorifying God with your life. You understand? I'm going to say more about that under what is biblical counseling. But know that biblical counseling is not an autonomous ministry. It's not to be done apart from the church. Biblical counseling is not reserved for the experts or professionals, okay? Brethren, I think we in America have placed our confidence and education here and have lost sight of the Holy Spirit when it comes to counseling. I say that and I believe that with all my heart. Because of this, some evangelicals' approach to counseling is secular. It's secular. Meaning, counseling is for the professionals, those who study psychology or psychiatry, really know what they're doing when it comes to our counseling needs. Alright? Now I'm going to be frank with you, because I think someone needs to say this in our day. And many men have said this, but I'm saying in our congregation, we need to be thinking in these terms. And I'm going to refer you to an excellent series by C.J. Mahaney. I might as well do that now. You just go to sovereigngrace.com. And you click on a series entitled, Another Gospel, Discovering the Challenges of the Therapeutic Age. And I would highly recommend that for your listening, concerning the pandemic issues that we're facing here. CJ Mahaney actually believes that this is another gospel. Sovereigngrace.com. And I think the title of the messages are Another Gospel, The Challenge of the Therapeutic Age, I believe. Turning your Bibles to 1 Corinthians chapter 1, We read in verse 26, For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called. That's Paul speaking about those in the world who are being called out of the world into Christianity or salvation by God's grace. Verse 27, but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise. And God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty. And by the way, Jesus said, what is highly esteemed amongst men is an abomination in God's sight. And the base things of the world and the things which are despised, God has chosen and the things which are not to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in his presence. OK, I want you to drop over. To verse I mean, Chapter two, beginning at verse six, reading through 16. And this is Paul continuing in the same thing. He says, however, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age. OK, and that's where I want to tie this in with psychology. Psychology is the wisdom of this age. All right. It's opposed to biblical counsel. God's Holy Spirit doesn't teach us like that. All right. We need to apply these passages that way to our lives, brothers and sisters. He says, verse seven, but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew, for had they known it, they would have not crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have it entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love him. You can't attain God through reason and logic and study. God has to grant you salvation first and foremost. And that qualifies you to use your reason to study God the way we should. And I know you know that, brothers and sisters. Nine or ten? But God has revealed them to us through his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now you, and I would add you, brethren, my brothers and sisters, now you, Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. All right? I want to just point you to two highly educated men, because I'm not knocking education here. I'm just, what I'm doing is I'm trying to highlight something here. You cannot mix psychology with theology. That's dangerous. One is worldly wisdom, the other is spiritual wisdom. Alright? And we need to talk about that. I need to know where you stand, you need to know where I stand, and you need to know where your brethren stand on that if we're going to be unified. We have to speak the same thing via the same mind. You see? This is a huge, huge topic in our day, in our evangelical circles, brothers and sisters. Chuck? Is there a correct branch of study that would be called biblical psychology? I mean, from the soul, the idea of the study of the soul? Yeah, I don't, but I think we are going to get into that, Chuck. We'll talk about that. But I wouldn't use that terminology. I think it's confusing. Jennifer? The thing that's confusing for me is when either among Christians or even among non-Christians there's moral or like recovery success, their life gets better and not necessarily through a biblical means or by the Holy Spirit. So that's where it's hard not to encourage a person to use what works, even if you know they're not using true biblical counseling concepts or Fair point. Can you give me an example? Well, I guess it would be Christians that went to AA. I mean, I haven't studied enough to know the real origins, whether that was truly founded by Christians or not, and whether that continues with the local AA or whatever recovery groups are out there, but it's just That's a big one for me, because if the person isn't even sober, they can't really... I don't know. Robert? What I would say, Janet, is that... I'm not exactly a wrestler. We wrestle with this perpetually in the ministry. I think that we've got to be careful, though, because what Ernie's saying is that our biblical counseling must come out of the Word, must be Word-centered, Word-based, Word-dispensing. But that doesn't mean that others who go to these other places don't change their behavior as Ernie has mentioned regarding behavior modification. But there's a whole different issue of behavior modification changing like your life gets better in the sense that you're no longer spending your money on alcohol, but you're spending... That's good as far as it goes, but we're talking in terms of the root of the matter by way of grace and transformation to Christ's likeness is what biblical counseling is really all about. And we've got to separate those two world views out. We are thankful when people get off on drugs. We are thankful when people get off on alcohol and all of that. But nevertheless, that won't make them right with God. That won't transform them into a Christian. I have recommended people or referred people to AA, Jennifer, in my council. Okay? Because I think AA does, it has a place to help that type of behavior, the type of behavior issues. Okay? We had one hand here, and then David. We can get off of things behaviorally, yet God calls us not to just have better lives, but to have a life that Reflects him and even seeks to change our behavior in a way that he gets to call us to that. He's the authority in that. When we seek another authority, we're not seeking to be under God and to let God help us go through those things. And putting away alcohol is a good thing for the drunkard, but that's not necessarily conformity to Christ. the love and the adultery in your heart for it. I mean, I know people have successfully navigated the world and they don't drink, but the longings are still there. The reason they get away from it is not, the motive is not the love of God and to seek to reflect Him, but to get away from the dangers that, or even the consequences that alcohol brought into his life. I'm sorry, I forget your name. So, you're already starting to touch on this a little bit, but I was wondering if maybe you might expand a little bit more on, it seems that there is, at some point, these behavioral modification programs work in complement to what's happening in biblical counseling. I mean, you used the example of AA, that's an easy example. I don't know if you were very, I mean, if you wouldn't mind maybe talking about that a little bit more, about how the two sub-points work together. Okay, so I appreciate that, Heather. Yeah, it's a good point. We had a hand over here. Your name, sir? John? Yes, John. I am a psychologist, licensed in the state of North Carolina. Yes. And I want to affirm everything that you're saying. I want to let people know that I believe psychology is one of the deceitful philosophies referred to by Paul in Colossians 2.8. And that the problem with psychological methods is that they do work sometimes in a temporal sense. A God-sense there, brother, and I didn't plan this. Who's that man? Matt, Ray, and then I'm going to have to move on. Professor, the issue of somebody using those scriptures in a... Let's see, I... Oh, thanks. Want me to come back to you now? Yeah, please. This is something I'm still wrestling in my mind, brother. Is biblical counseling only effectual for Christians who know the Word? Yes and no. Very good, very good. I think we can do some evangelizing though, Ray, in that context. So that would be where I would use the note. Okay, so often times people come in, and I've experienced this on more than one occasion, and they're coming in for marital issues. And they bring their spouse in, and their spouse gets converted. And they love the counseling, and they want to hear more. Or you'll have a scenario where you'll have a spouse who thought they were a Christian, and counseling exposes that. That they're not, really. And their theology has been off. And so, I think we need to clarify what we mean by what we say when we use those terms. Matt. Can you clarify that or clarify your question? No. OK. The spiritual man is learned by spiritual men. An aesthetic would take that or a and go somewhere else with it. The Lord is this and the Lord is that. The Lord is talking to me through this. Going through those kind of changes. The Lord has said to me. That's looking at it from a mystic point of view, an aestheticism. You deny yourself this and that to hear the Lord. You mean apart from the Bible? Well, they're using those particular verses. What verses? I didn't hear any verses. The spiritual man understands spiritual things while the natural man understands natural things. Right, but Paul's referring to the Word of God when he's talking about the spiritual things there. You understand? Not apart from the Bible, not apart. We're talking about biblical counseling here. We're talking about the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures. Okay? Alright? Different people have different definitions of what spirituality is and that we have to define what Paul means by spiritual there. I'm a mystic and let me tell you what spirituality is and I'm discerning things because I'm spiritual, whereas as Christians we would say that's actually not biblical spirituality. Okay, very good. That's what I think, that's at least what it sounds like. Does that help with that? Yes. Can you clarify that? Okay. What Paul, what the Bible teaches as true spirituality, which you do. That's right. Yes. Okay, so biblical counseling is not reserved for the experts or professionals. Biblical counseling is not psychology. Alright? And I just want to give an example here. I have the DSM IV. I'm sure you're familiar with this. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. And I want to read a portion from here because I think we need to be aware of psychological labels that are not rooted in scripture. And this has been referred to as the Bible of psychiatry here in many quarters, okay? Because this is what they use as an authority, okay, to gauge problems and whatnot. How many of you have heard of OCD? Okay. Obsessive compulsive personality disorder. How about ADHD? Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. How about panic attacks? How about narcissism? How about... Well, anyway, let me just give you a criteria for OCD. And I just picked that one. Listen. Excuse me. Is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost. Shows perfectionism that interferes with tasks completion. Is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met. Is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships, not accounted for by obvious economic necessity. Is over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values. Sounds like a Pharisee, huh? Is unable to discard worn out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value. Is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things. Adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others. Money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes. Shows rigidity and stubbornness. Brethren, according to that, I have had OCD. And my children have had OCD. And what I mean by that, brothers and sisters, is we all experience these symptoms or behaviors, don't we? Don't we? Yeah, please. Please, tell me you do. Because you do. I do. You do. I don't know if you're going to hit this point, but I was going to ask, because it's interesting, another comparison is, what edition of the DSM is that? Because the Bible is the same Bible from all the way back. And those books, they revise almost annually. Oh, we found a new one. Oh, this one's not in there anymore. So just to say that because... Yeah, I know some people in here, and even, yeah, We can have all this talk, but I still disagree as a king. And one of the things I want to point out is that you can't have as much confidence in psychology as you can in the Bible, just because of the sheer fact that your disease or diagnosis may be here, may be not here one year, and you might just acquire it the next year. It's just so flimsy. We need the Bible to identify things. You understand? Not human wisdom. Not experience. Not putting animals in a cage and studying them for years and years and years and then formulating our data based upon that. We need sola scriptura. We need the Spirit of God to open our eyes. Now, I'm not saying by that that the Spirit of God doesn't use those things or can't use those things, but we don't begin there and we don't end there. We begin and we end with God's Holy Word. Robert. I think the whole point of Liam's observation, which is very valid, is to remember When you start entering into these fields of psychology or psychiatry, both of which come from the Greek word Psyche meaning soul, you need to recognize that you're now moving away from the sufficiency of the scripture to deal with the soul. And that is a faith issue for a Christian. That is an orthodoxy issue for a Christian. In whom are we trusting? In whom is our confidence? In whom is our faith? Is it in God and his word? The One who has made us and the One who knows us better than we know ourselves and His Word about us. Or is it in the point you're making, the wisdom of men? Right. And concerning the behaviors that we might experience or identify even in our own lives, brothers and sisters, grace really doesn't shield us from that. Do you understand? Okay? Grace teaches us how to respond biblically to it. Alright? The grace of God has appeared to all, teaching us what, brothers and sisters? That denying ungodliness and worldly what? See, that's the way grace teaches. That's the method of grace. Talk about mortification. You've got to deal with the desires, the lusts. And see, secular psychology does not do that. All that can do is modify behavior. Jeremy? I was just going to say, I think that example from the DSM 4 or whatever it is, is a perfect example of of the part of psychology that can at times be helpful, which is simply observing behavior and laying out, this is how you're acting. So, psychological studies that observe patterns of behavior can be used to even expose the way that we're really acting. But the problem then is, A, how do you define what is the root problem of that behavior? In other words, what is narcissism? Well, the Bible would define it maybe as selfishness, as self-focused. And then the second issue would be how you then deal with that. And that's where psychology is going to go a whole different direction, and it's going to take you down a path that's age-acceptive, and it's going to abdicate you from your responsibilities, and then it's going to provide means for dealing with the problem with behavior. that doesn't ever, A, get to the root issue, and is actually going to be destructive for your life. I know you're going to get to that, Aaron, but I think I appreciate that. I don't have to get to it now. We're going to talk about chemical imbalances, where it's the chemical, and there's something just kind of snapping right here. And a lot of Christians are on antidepressants. How do you address that kind of stuff? I know a lot of Christians are on antidepressants. Yeah, that's a pretty precise topic there. Patricia, so we'll cover that under another subject. I don't believe what it is. I know what it is at this point, but we are going to touch upon that. Kim? psychological terms that are used, and I know that those panic attacks are real. Yes. I've experienced them. I have too. If you're a Christian, it takes intense, intense, of an intense battle to get your your system, your mind, your body, your spirit back in line. And I know with over-the-counter sleep aids, I don't think, you know, my husband actually in the past has asked if I should take one of them. I took one. And what I did was I said, Lord, if whatever I'm supposed to learn, I need to just battle this out, and you've got to show me what is the root of this. And I'd like to have won, because I didn't want to miss whatever was gone. But it wasn't, and I've experienced them lately. They're not gone. But just to encourage that, even though you're in the darkest moment, that God hasn't let you go, you can battle your way, because it's intense. I mean, it is extreme. I mean, sometimes you feel like you're going to go over the brink. But God will show you what it is, deep down, whatever the root of it is. And what he showed me lately is my fears here of loss. And I'm worrying about things that I'm going to lose in the future. That I'm worried about losing people I love. you know, things that you can't control. So they have my sin and the fear of God. I appreciate that, Kim, because those are real hard issues, hard struggles that we have that we have to work through and God's grace is sufficient for that. And we need to believe that. All right. I want to say one thing about Jeremy's comment. You know, I think that we need to be careful, brothers and sisters, that we, because, you know, the psychological world or the psychiatric world has these labels, and they've studied these things for years. See, the tendency for some of us is to put our confidence in that. Okay? And I'm saying to you, you need to be careful there. All right? Because that's, to his point, because they've come up with these things, the Holy Spirit should be doing that in your life, by the way, not the psychiatrist or the psychologist. So when I'm dealing with what they would call OCD in my life, I don't use their labels. You know why? Because the Holy Spirit is teaching Ernie King that, no, this is covetousness here, is what it really is, Ernie. Okay? You're judgmental and critical here, Ernie. You don't have OCD. You're critical. You've got a critical spirit that you need to deal with. Oh, Lord, well, thank you. Do you understand? See, the Holy Spirit doesn't use man's wisdom in ways to teach you, brothers, that you have the Spirit of God, you have that which is sufficient, the Spirit of God and the Word of God. And what the psychiatrist and psychologist can do is affirm that, okay, if you happen to use those fields. And I'm not against those fields, by the way, and I'm also not against medication, okay? Jim, I just wanted to make that point. Robert? As we handle people in medication, we're not medical doctors and we don't assume things, we treat it with great sensitivity. We know when people come and they're articulating their experience, the issue is not that they haven't had an experience, the issue is they come to an accurate interpretation of an experience. a biblical solution to dealing with their experience. That can take a long time because they're not even sure how they're articulating their experience and we're not even sure what we're hearing. And we've got to work through all of that. But I think the other point being that it's very often the deception of going into that world in a kind of naive way is the fact that it subtly becomes your conscience. You believe what they're telling you and their interpretation becomes your interpretation and you then buy into their solutions for your problems. And that's the fatal mistake. And that's what we've got to thread that needle continually. And it is a war that we're in. And there's never a place where you come to where you've suddenly got it all together. It's a battle continually of the mind, of the heart, of faith, of mortification. We've got to recognize that. Yeah, and the role that the DSM plays in just that is that it is a way to code problems for insurance reimbursement. Problems are coded so that insurance, much like substance abuse or something, you can encode it so that a doctor can get reimbursed for it. But there lies the poison, and that is, you have a disease. You have something wrong with you. as opposed to there is sin in your life. You need to repent of that. So that function that the DSM plays in that, yes it does describe accurately people's experiences, but it has its other dark side too. Yes, I appreciate that. Okay, we need to move on because we're out of time here. Biblical counseling is not separate from discipleship. Okay, let me just say this here. To take biblical counseling outside the context of discipleship or progressive sanctification, brothers and sisters, is to redefine it. The goal of biblical counseling is always conformity to Jesus Christ. Always. Not behavior modification, not relief. Conformity to Jesus Christ. That's the goal. To please God in all things. And I'm not saying that we can't seek relief. I'm not saying that we can't seek to modify our behavior. Biblical counseling is not any counseling that claims to use the Bible. Do I need to say anything on that? No. Okay. Any comments or questions before we close? William. I just want to say earlier, and to go with what Rick was saying, it is about interpreting what we're receiving, and sometimes I think when I come to a church like this, when you trust the pastors, it's like, oh, biblical counseling, that's the best thing in the world. But when you go to another church and you talk and there's elders who just don't know what they're doing, period. You almost have this pull towards psychology because it's the best, better of two evils. So I want to make the point that I'm not saying if you go into psychology, you're just dumb and you don't see that biblical counseling is better. It's that sometimes biblical counseling isn't biblical counseling and we have to find accurate biblical counseling instead of an alternative to biblical counseling. Even though they use the term biblical counseling to the point of defining our terms here. This has always made me think about how so often the Christian who trusts in the Word of God will be mocked for his faith. People say, you live by faith, you put in your trust. But I mean, this whole thing that we're talking about here. It's all a faith issue. I mean, you're either going to put your faith in a DSM or you're going to put it in a Bible. And I mean, what do you want your confidence to be rooted in? Something that is still shaping and taking form and maybe has only really been in existence even as a science for a few hundred years or several hundred years or the time-tested Word of God that for centuries has helped people root out evil from their lives. So you can't discredit faith even if you're a psychologist because you're telling people to either trust you or you're saying don't trust God, but you're saying trust me. So you're preaching faith. You're preaching a different faith, a different gospel to them, just like you're saying. Yeah, I would highly recommend that you guys go to sovereigngrace.com Click on another gospel, The Challenge of the Therapeutic Age, and listen to Mr. Mahaney on that. I have to close, Steve. Great. I appreciate that. Let's pray. Father, thank you for this time. Thank you for your Word taking its rightful place in our lives. O God, we pray that you would, as David said, give us the faith to believe it, that it might change us for your glory. We ask this for Jesus' sake. Amen.