Well, good evening and thank you for coming back. That's right. That's a good sign. Okay. So some of you may not have been here last week. We'll just briefly recap week one. We began by listing types of catastrophic loss. Catastrophic loss in Sitzer's definition is, if normal, natural, reversible loss is like a broken limb, then catastrophic loss is like an amputation, permanent results, incalculable impact, cumulative consequences. Each new day forces one to face some new and devastating dimension of the loss. It creates a whole new context for one's life. page 32. The first several in the list are from the text, and the last several in the list, which we'll leave up here for a little bit, were from our discussion. We then also discussed the perils and difficulties of the natural human impulse to compare both our suffering, both the trials that we have gone through, and also our responses to it. The whole question of what we're doing here, I think there's an important quotation here that we want to share from his introduction. I believe that recovery from such loss is an unrealistic and even harmful expectation, if by recovery we mean resuming the way we lived and felt prior to the loss. Instead, the book is intended to show how it is possible to live and be enlarged by loss even as we continue to experience it. Our response involves the choices we make, the grace we receive, and ultimately the transformation we experience. Something else that he sort of mentioned in the preface that I wanted to reiterate a little bit was that this book and this class is not intended to help people get over the loss, but rather to show it's possible to live in and be enlarged by that loss, even as you continue to experience it. It's also meant to help people understand how hard it is to face loss and how long it takes to grow from it. And then finally, the author says that the good that comes from the loss does not justify the loss or explain the tragedy. That loss will always be awful, even though good will come from it. It's not like, oh, well, this person got saved, so that was all worth it. It's still a horrible tragedy, and it's really hard. And we grow through it, but it doesn't mean it's okay since some good came from it. It's that God uses the good in spite of that pain. In a moment, what we're going to ask you to do is at your tables, and there's paper on your tables to assist you should you require it, to talk about the church community's response to both the obstacles to and the opportunities for response. To frame that discussion, a couple of thoughts. You might hear from someone, you just don't know what I have gone through and how much I have suffered. The notion that each individual's suffering, experience of catastrophic loss is unique. But Sitzer insists that loss does not have to isolate us or make us feel lonely because While each case of suffering is unique, the experience of suffering is universal. We all, at one point or another, experience suffering, and thus we can live in community. We must enter the darkness of loss alone, but once there, we will find others with whom we can share life together. So I'm going to leave that up for you to digest a little bit. I'm going to ask to take about 10 minutes for you to discuss at your tables, participating into you reaching out into community to bear burdens alongside those who have suffered loss, to be willing to insert yourself and to share your loss as you do so, and also the opportunities that exist. And as you take a couple of moments to do so, this is an appropriate time, and we didn't want to do this week one, this is an appropriate time for a bit of our story. Some of you, many of you were here 14 years ago. On September 9th, 2005, I was on my way to a meeting at Ball State. It was about 310 in the afternoon. I was driving along Riverside West, a little bit east of the Scramble Light. I slowed down for a bicyclist who was approaching, whom I could see. And I could have turned in front of the bicyclist, but I thought, let's allow time and I can wait. And waited for the bicyclist, and I never saw the motorcyclist who was approaching behind him. I turned in front of the motorcyclist. The motorcyclist hit my car. And I felt the impact. I immediately stopped my car on Martin Street and got out of my car, turned around, and I watched and heard him aspirate. I heard him trying to breathe as blood was filling his lungs. So I heard him die. Every experience of tragedy is different. In our case, I was the one who caused it. And so in the aftermath of that, and we'll talk more about our experience that evening later. Sharon will talk about that. In the aftermath of that, we got counseling. And I do want to emphasize something that should never be forgotten. I do not, in telling my story, want to ignore the story of the young man. His name was Joshua Hudson. He was a Ball State student, and he died at the age of 21, and he had a family. I don't want to ignore that. So that shaped our lives tremendously, and it was about a year and a half after that that we encountered the book that we're discussing with you. The second experience, the one that we're still grappling with, almost precisely two years ago, Sharon was diagnosed with cancer. This was quite a surprise to her. No history of breast cancer in her family. And the detection was early. The cancer had spread a little bit, but only to a lymph node. The medical procedures were successful. And she's taking the proper medication to deal with that. That medication is having side effects. And she's going to have to take that medication for innumerable years to come. And so it also has changed our lives. It is a different kind of experience. No matter how early, no matter how successful procedures are, the experience of cancer also changes you. So I wanted to introduce that at this point. And then just take 10 minutes. And if you could talk about the obstacles to And this can be based upon your reading of Chapter 13, but also your own experience. The obstacles to reaching out to people in the community who've experienced loss, and also the opportunities that one has to reach out. And then what we'll do is we'll report back in 10 minutes. So just before 640, we'll report back. So why don't you interact with people in this community? I mean, it was really funny, because when we went to counseling that very first time, Gary Vaughn said, well, you are now a member of a club that nobody wants to join. And you never want to say, welcome to the club. It's not a fun club to live in. And I'm sure that we were not easy to approach, because we were pretty raw, especially with the accident. We were both pretty raw. I'm sure there were obstacles. And people did reach out to us, but there are just awkward There are, you just don't even know how to approach things. So what are some of those obstacles that you have encountered in dealing with people in loss? And then what was the other one? And also opportunities. What are opportunities? One of the reasons we want to handle it this way is we don't just want to talk at you. We want this to be dialogue and what you're thinking. So, to you. How are we doing? Am I back on? OK, how are we doing? Am I interrupting you too soon? Am I interrupting you too soon? Do you need more time? Were some of you done a few minutes ago, and were you tempted to fold your paper into a little triangle and start playing the football game? You guys never played that? OK. Actually, I'm too Irish to do that. You're too Irish to do that. OK. You know, just gauging it, it looked like several of you were still engaged. So OK, either obstacles or opportunity. How about we start with this table here, we'll call it the beady table for ease of reference, and just sort of work our way around. What you got? Okay, seven obstacles. Don't want to relive it's too painful. People are afraid to say the wrong thing. Okay, go on. Thank you. OK. All right. People back here? Yeah. Thank you. That's a good idea. Thank you, Gary. I started to do that, then I stopped. Obstacles listed so far, and we're coming to you table back in the back next. Don't want to relive it. It's too painful. People are afraid to say the wrong thing. A social stigma could be attached. Some people lack compassion. Some are private and do not want to share life events. And some may not know scripture well enough to offer help. And note that some of these are on both sides of the equation that we're talking about. OK, in the back, the Nichols table. Then you add a number two. You also add a number two. Opportunities, you mean? No. People are afraid to say the wrong thing. OK. Yeah, let's not repeat. Anything different. What would be different? We'll just go with what's different. But in fact, on to that one, some people are afraid to say the wrong thing because there's A question of timing, so they are afraid to speak too late. Okay. Okay, and we will be talking about the stages of grief next week. Okay, anything else from that table? On back here in the back. Anything different, new? Okay. All of the above, right here in the middle. Avoidance. Yeah, don't know what to do, okay? They might speak longer than you are willing to listen. Which, which way are you, which way are you going with that? Like the person? Yeah. I will just go back to the previous point and note that it is a wonder anybody ever has a conversation with me about anything, because it's pretty much guaranteed to go longer than you're willing to listen. It's just true. You've just got to own it. So, all right. It is what it is. Okay? All right? Over here. Any others? Let's just go this side of the room. Any others we haven't hit? Yes? Student response. Okay, so the individual's lack of understanding where they are in the process and what they need. That's really good. There are several really good ones here. Yeah, sometimes when you're a mess, you don't even know what you need. Yep. It's true. Yes? Generally, we're uncomfortable with other people's emotions. We want to fix, we want to help, we don't really want to sit and deal with them. Okay. Uncomfortable with others' emotions, want to sit and fix, not sit and listen. How about what do we have under opportunities? Okay, one more under obstacles is not only are some people uncomfortable with listening to other's emotions, some people are unwilling to share their emotions and take the risk. Did that get it? And if at any time I'm not getting what you're saying, please if you don't really know someone personally at all, like they're in the church and you know, that it is awkward to intrude on their private life. I mean, if you have no relationship with them at all. Professor Ian Shapiro Okay, don't have a relationship yet. Hard to reach. No, no, it makes sense. How do you reach out to somebody you know is suffering that you have no prior point of contact with? Yeah. Okay. How about opportunities? Yes? emotions and just feel without feeling like they're going to be fixed. Or judged. Or judged. Create places where people feel like they can share without being judged if they can't be fixed immediately. You know, this is the sitcom or Star Trek problem. In sitcoms, we solve the problems of the American family in half an hour. And in Star Trek, we solve the problems of the galaxy in an hour. And things, thank you, and things just don't get fixed that quickly. But we're conditioned by what we experience. And we are a fast food culture. We want things now. And so the notion that we could have an opportunity to reach out to people and then walk away and not have all their problems solved at the end of the discussion, well, we failed. No. Okay. Anybody else? Yes. Student 3. Speaking back when I went through that process, sometimes they didn't ask me if I needed something done, they just came and did it. I really didn't know what needed to be done, or there's a point for a while you realize And that's risky. The point is that people did not ask what was needed to be done, they just showed up and did it. And that is of course risky because you might... Yeah, they might be rejected, they might make a mistake, but you know, on the whole it's a risk worth taking. Okay, others? You know, you're hitting some of the points we're about to get to. So that's good. It's good to be present. Sharon, do you want to jump in at this point and tell that story? Which one were you? The night of. Oh, I was going to say that later, but that's okay. Yeah, so the night of the accident, there was one couple who came who had experienced a similar tragedy. From the other side. From the other side. They had lost someone in a car accident, a young person. And they just showed up and they came and sat with us. They were able to speak into our situation in a way that when they said something, I believed them. They didn't say a lot, but what they said was very powerful. The one thing that I will never forget that the wife, the woman said to me was, someday this will be okay. And I believed her. She said, it won't be tonight, it won't be tomorrow, it won't be for a while, but someday this will be okay. And I held on to that. So that was very precious to me. The other couple came and probably said a couple things like, I'm really sorry, whatever, but they just sat there with us all night, all evening. We were waiting for police reports, we were waiting to see what had happened because they had taken him to the hospital, but we were waiting for him to be transferred to Indy thinking, oh, maybe he'll be okay eventually. No, and then another police officer arrived to tell us no they're keeping him alive long enough so that he can be a donor and So just everything was swirling trying to call our pain how do you tell your parents, something like that over the phone. But the importance of people just being there. Yes, because all of this was happening and everybody was giving, you know, the professionals were giving us advice, the pastor and the police officers, but our friends were just there and they anchored us in a way that I cannot, there are no words. So sometimes just being there and not saying anything is as valuable as coming in with advice. Any other opportunities? Yes. OK. Praying for you and doing it. Can I say something here? Five years, about five years after the accident, there was a woman at our church who came up to me after church one Sunday morning and she expressed her sorrow and her, you know, whatever. And she says, you know, I've been praying for you every day since this accident. Well, I remembered that. And about 10 years out, I ran into her and I said, I am so thankful for what you said to me about five years ago. That was so precious that you had prayed for us every day for five years. And she said, I have never stopped praying for you. I've prayed for you every day. And it had been at least 10 years out. That boggles my mind. Yeah. And it's not somebody that we were particularly close to, but I am so grateful for that. That was precious. That's still precious to me. So, and if you have anything else to interject, please, please don't. Since I misread social cues regularly, you know. Anybody else quick before he moves on. That was pretty much what I was just saying, but yeah. Yone has one. Yes, please. Okay, Yone. When people share their loss, the community is also going to grow in their compassion. Community can grow in compassion when loss is shared. Okay, and I think I saw Jane. patients with serious illness, cancer, other things. And a lot of times the remarks that they have are that when people find out I have cancer they, because they don't know what to say, they go away and they stay away. And it's like it's catching them. If you don't know what to say, just showing up is a whole lot better than admitting you don't know what to say or how to say and you stay away because of that. So don't disappear in the parlance of the millennial generation. Don't ghost somebody. Okay. All right. Somebody else had... Somebody else? All right, so the, Sitzer talks about a groundswell of support for public loss that ends almost as quickly as it begins. When loss is very public, everybody rallies, and then six months later, sort of off the radar screen. You know, do you remember the song, We Are the World? We are the world, we are the children. We are the ones that make a better life, so let's keep giving. What was that for? What was it for? Hunger in Africa. Where? Does anybody remember? Yeah. You've nailed it. It was Ethiopia. It was in the mid-80s. You know, and everybody cared for a little bit. Because they saw their favorite musician. Yeah, I know, I know. So there's sometimes, there's a rallying and then it fades from memory. And then there's also with regard to private loss. In the example he gives, his wife was infertile for about a decade before they had their first child. And you can read in the text some of the advice she was given. And trite answers, as he says, are a poor replacement for compassion. Some of these points address parts of what you've said. Divorce can be very difficult to deal with because If you know both partners, how do you interact with them? They want you to choose sides. I've recently had to deal with this. Disability brings discomfort, and this is part of Jane's point with cancer. Terminal illness. Somebody's dying in front of us. Oh, I'm going to die too. Yeah, I don't really want to be reminded of that. Here's an interesting issue. I did not have the time and energy to share myself with every one of those concerned friends. I did not have enough room in my soul to let them all in. I could not re-keep telling the same story. What you got a few minutes ago was a very condensed version. The longer version of that, you just can't tell it over and over. And that leads us to greeting time. And I want to preface what Sharon is going to say about greeting time in this way. Fellowship is an important part of the body. Greeting time in and of itself is not a bad thing. Greeting time for people who feel naked, exposed, and just don't know what to do. Go ahead, dear. Thank you for that lovely introduction. Oh my goodness. So, okay, I'm just gonna be as honest as I know how to be here, okay? So, greeting time, for me, went from, hi, it's good to see you, oh, I haven't seen you, how's your kids, you know, happy Sunday. And she's a social person, unlike me. I love greeting time, normally. It went from that to a Christian Chinese fire drill. Everybody run around real quick, say what you can, and hurry up and get back to your places. That's not what it is, but that's how it felt because many people would come up and it was so, I appreciate the love and the care. And yet, if too many people would ask, how are you, how are you, how are you, I would just, I would sort of have a panic attack. And that's not me. I mean, I love people. I love all of you. And so it's a very interesting, phenomenon that goes on in your mind as you're trying to put your emotions, catch your emotions up to what you know to be true. And you love, we have been here for 28 years. So to even explain, I don't even know how to explain it. But I just had this panic. And so I would kind of sneak in after the greeting time and then hurry up and leave before the last song just because I was just raw. It was like, has the dentist ever hit a nerve in your tooth? And you just want to, that's kind of how it felt. And so mostly better now. But it was very real, and it was hard. And then another thing that I noticed was that because I had had surgery, I noticed I had to learn this, is that to be gentle with people who have had surgery, be a gentle hug, because a purse can poke you, and too tight of a squeeze can be painful. That's, now that's surgical, okay. Oh my goodness. Not like that. Go back to your spot there. So anyway, so I'm just. I'm just telling you, that's where I was, and it's just hard. And I went through that a little bit, I think, with the accident, but I think it's just been more recent with cancer and going through that, because I don't know, you know, I often didn't know where I was, and I didn't know how to express, it wasn't that I didn't want people to know, it's almost like, how much do they wanna know, and do they really wanna know, and are they asking how I am, and I didn't have an answer. And so it's just a very confusing time, so. With regard to presence, the quotation that's up on the screen. Sharon found this, I'd never really seen it in this light before, but 2 Corinthians 7, five through seven, the coming of Titus. Paul was comforted by the coming of Titus. Paul was comforted by Titus' presence because of everything else it signified. So, the choice to be present. Now, so we talked a little bit about some of the risks involved. This is how Sitzer addresses that. Community requires a choice to be willing to be changed by someone else's loss. Good comfort requires empathy, forces adjustments, and sometimes mandates huge sacrifices. Comforters must be prepared to let the pain of another become their own and so let it transform them. They will never be the same after that decision. Does that sound easy? And some days you're not really sure you want to do that. The willingness to be changed by someone else's loss. He describes two people who did what our friends did that night. They decided in that moment, friends who flew in from Chicago after his wife and mother and daughter were killed, simply to be present with me in spite of their helplessness and brokenness. What does it mean to just be present in the moment? Now, the next quotation I'm not going to read in detail, but basically it is the importance of maintaining the relationships that you had. When someone goes through a terrible loss, the community of friends they had beforehand remain important to them because if they have to then seek out a new community of friends and build all of that, that's one more change. Church is often the hardest place to be. The people who need the comfort must also decide to receive it. That is not a judgmental statement. Going back to something that was said a couple of minutes ago, the phrase was, I caught this from somebody just a moment. The individual's lack of understanding where they are in the process and what they need. It's hard to be vulnerable to say, yes, I am willing for you to invest in my life when I don't know what I need. Go ahead. People have needs when they're going through difficult times. And some of the things, and I think you touched on some of these things, but I just had made a list of things that were helpful to us. And it made it easier to interact with people because people did reach out to us. And the one thing that I would say is that when you want to help somebody, think up something appropriate and do it, rather than ask, what do you need, what do you need, what do you need? Because sometimes we don't know, people don't know what they need. Because we're just, when you get into a survival mode, You don't even know what you need next. Sometimes you're just in a daze all day, and you can't even think about anything. Anyway, for example, kids' schedules. If somebody has kids, can I pick up your kid and take them somewhere? Do you need assistance with rides? Food is an obvious one, because nobody feels like cooking when you're in a survival mode. Something that was really sweet too that I noticed is that we were not allowed to pick up the phone because reporters were calling. Our situation was a lot more public and so we were told not to answer the phone. So we didn't, but people still called, and it was really precious because people would call and say, hey, this is so-and-so, I just want you to know, I don't expect you to call me back, just want you to know we love you. We're praying for you, we know this is tough. And I listened to those messages more than once. I mean, it was very encouraging. Send a note, obviously. There's a difference between telling someone your story that's like theirs and telling, I mean, for example, if you say, oh my goodness, I had that same thing, and so here's how, this is what I did, and this is how they fixed it, and here's what, and you're gonna be fine. Versus, it's a very different thing to say, I've been through a similar situation, and if you want to talk about it, I'd be happy to answer any questions. My story is probably different from yours, but there might be some similarities, and I might be able to understand that process a little bit with you. Also, Nancy Guthrie has written a book. I don't know if you know her, but our Bible study group has done some of her studies. She's very easy to read. Her books are well written. She recently published a book called What Grieving People Wish You Knew. about what really helps and what really hurts. She lost two children to a genetic disorder and anyway she's written a book from that and it's a really good, if you're interested let me know and I'll give you the exact title again. Show Me Grace If I Sit in the Back and Run Out Before the End of the Service. If you could, the last point here, there was one particular gift of love that you experienced. Yes. So the day after the accident, neither one of us wanted to drive. I mean, we were literally nauseous. It was like, I cannot drive. And I had to drive somewhere, and I came back home, and I was like, I just can't do this right now. And we were trying to keep the kids' lives as normal as was possible. Yes. Our thought was, let's keep the kids' lives normal and we'll get out of everything else we don't have to do. But I said to Kevin, and I was mid-sentence, and I said, oh my goodness, what are we going to do about Catherine? Because she needs to get to, and I hadn't even finished my sentence, The phone rang. I picked it up. This person said, I just want you to know, this may not be a good time to call, but we were just talking and we've already arranged a schedule. So if Catherine needs a ride to Spell Bowl, we can take her and pick her up. And I hadn't even finished asking Kevin. the question. God's, I mean, his fingerprints were all over it from the beginning, but that was a blessing. Later that person apologized because they didn't feel like they'd done enough and were like, yeah, you are the example we're going to remember the rest of our lives for God answering a prayer mid-sentence. Even something this big, you know, yeah, because she's like, yeah, we did this. I'm like, yeah, but it felt like this. It was huge that day. So, yeah. Chocolate. Chocolate is always good too. Chocolate is always good. So, any comments or questions about what we've been discussing to this point? Let me make sure everybody has a moment because there's a lot of stuff that we've talked about and there are several things in that last PowerPoint that I left alone because you've actually brought them up. But anything from the list that you made, anything else you want to discuss? I will say we are a community of the broken. I don't know about you, but I grew up, church was a place where you didn't show your brokenness. Church was a place where you came and you put on your Sunday best in every sense of the word. And the notion that church, whether it's the worship service or situations like this, was a place where you could share, you know, I'm broken, I'm a mess, I have no idea what to do. No, no, no, no, no, no, don't be vulnerable. But Christ came to save the lost, came to save sinners. And so we are broken. The question is, is can we intentionally be broken and vulnerable and deal with those obstacles that we discussed? And those obstacles are real. To be an intentional community of the broken. to make the choice to do that. And I don't have all the answers on that, but that's a large part of what we're trying to do here. I also think that in the midst of the mess, when we acknowledge the mess, it's very freeing. I just remember at one point, thinking, I am such a mess. I can't think, I can't focus, I can't, I just, I'm a mess. And the more I thought about it, it was like, ooh, I've always been a mess. I just didn't realize it. And theologically speaking, we're obviously a mess, but there was something freeing in that because I think just acknowledging it and asking God to work in and through our mess was a very good exercise in growth. Now, as part of that coming alongside and part of that experience, so on both sides, the people who want to come alongside and love and the people who are in the midst of terrible loss, here's the reality. None of us like pain. We are conditioned, what do we do when we put our hand on a hot stove? We don't leave it there. That pain is a blessing to remind us of the danger. We would like to avoid the terror and the pain of loss, either ours or another's. Sitzer, and I don't know if this one fits all or not. It's in the book, I'm looking at it, I'm like, Buddy, you have got more courage than I had. He chose to turn into the darkness. The quickest way to reach the sun in the light of day is not to run west, chasing the setting sun, but to head east, plunging into the darkness until one comes to the sunrise. In choosing to face the night, I took my first steps toward the sunrise." And so he argues that running from the darkness, that running away from the pain would only lead to greater darkness. The reality is that there are some who cannot willingly do so right away. They just can't come to grips with the pain. And you know, we can't urge someone into it. We can't say, well, it's about time It's about time that you face this. So please hear us when we're saying that he talks about entering the darkness. That's not something you can shove somebody into. That's something that they have to choose to enter. He decided to allow himself to be transformed by his suffering rather than to think he could avoid it. Now one of the problems with that is praying. And so we're coming close to wrapping up here. I just wanna talk a little bit about the challenges of praying. It is hard to pray when your mind is so jumbled and you can't make sense of what is going on. when you can't read the Word of God because you can't get your mind to focus. And you know, I know that we've generally learned not to throw Romans 8.28 at people. All things work together for good, so obviously this horrible thing that has happened to you, I need to tell you right now, is going to work together for good. Not a very sensitive thing to say at the time. What about Romans 8, 26? The spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know what to pray for as we are, but the spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. There are just times where you just don't have words. It hurts too much. You don't know what to say other than, God, I have no clue. Please. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. I don't understand. I don't know where I am. And Isaiah 26, 16. I've been reading through the Bible for years now, but I mean, you read it with fresh eyes every time you read it because change has happened or you've grown or whatever. But this verse, hopefully I'm not taking it out of context, but it did really hit me. Isaiah 26, 16. Lord, they came to you in their distress. When you discipline them, they can barely whisper a prayer. And sometimes life takes a whack and knocks everything out of you and you can barely whisper a prayer. And that just, that verse resonates with me. But God is there and he does care and Sometimes it takes a while for our feelings to catch up with what we know to be true. And so giving each other grace in that process is really important. He learned that the experience of loss did not have to be the defining moment of his life. That the defining moment could be his response to the loss. You may not be at a place where you can reach that conclusion and right now the loss itself is the defining moment and your response isn't yet that defining moment. What I would say is there is tremendous truth in this quotation that I want to talk about for just a moment. I did not go through pain and come out the other side. Instead, I lived in it and found within that pain the grace to survive and eventually grow. I absorbed the loss into my life until it became part of who I am. Sorrow took up permanent residence in my soul and enlarged it. I am a different person because The greater capacity for sorrow gives me greater capacity for empathy as well as joy. And that is hard. For the last 24 hours, I have been obsessively checking the news reports about that accident in New Hampshire. I cannot tear my eyes away from it. Seven motorcyclists were killed in a collision with a pickup truck. It's personal. But I have the empathy for those people. I have the empathy for that truck driver. I have The capacity. Now, it's not perfect. It's not everything it could be. But sorrow does enlarge your capacity, if you'll let it. There is truth there. It's a painful truth. But it is true. Where we'll go next week. is we'll wrap up a couple of things here. But where we'll begin next week is he talks about the stages of grief. And you've all read about and heard about the stages of grief, you know, denial, bargaining, acceptance, and all of that. And his take on that, I think, is particularly interesting, and we're going to take a look at that. If you're keeping up in the reading, that's chapters four and five that we're going to look at next week. I think we're ready for a closing prayer and so on. Can I just clarify one thing that I said last week? When I mentioned about not asking people, how are you, because that can make them have to relive it and they, you know, it makes you scared and anyway, it's hard. But, and I put it in the context of making a statement saying it's so good to see you or I'm glad you're here or I'm praying for you or, you know, a statement rather than a question for a person who's going through grief. But I really meant that in a public setting. There is a place for it in a private setting to ask how somebody's doing. But in a public setting, if you're person one, two, or three, I might answer you, but the person who, poor number four, you know, you just can't tell it again. So, and not that everybody wants to hear it again. Especially in a public setting, I think that we just need to be sensitive, and I still make mistakes and do that all the time. And we are not professionals. That's our disclaimer. And we're only sharing our situation, and we don't want to pretend that that's everybody else's. But these are the ones we've been given. And I am retaining your inputs, and we're going to return to some of those. So thank you.