Father, I thank you for these ladies and I thank you for their husbands who are here today and therefore their families. Father, we know that our families are precious to you and that these marital unions are of great significance to the church and to the world and to your heart. But Lord, we are weak, we are poor sinners, we are often struggling, and so I thank you for the encouragement and the teaching that's come in. in this ministry, I suppose particularly the ladies being together and being able to share and feeling like they're not alone. Lord, we so easily feel like we're alone, but you are with us. So bless us today and help us to be wise, and what happens here will be beneficial in many ways. We pray in Jesus' name, amen. So our Q&A is going to work pretty much like they have worked when we've done them in the past. Thank you for submitting questions. They were terrific. Really good. And we have a big job ahead of us to get through all of them, and we're going to try to do that. And so what I've asked each of the couples to do is to briefly tell us how they've introduced themselves, briefly tell us how they met, and how long they have been married. So can I start on the far side with the Van Doodle wards? Is that okay? And we have a cordless mic, and I also have this mic here I'm willing to share. Oh, I hope that... We met 23, 24 years ago. And I've been married for 21, 22. There we go. Family in the test, right? And we met at Rebecca's parents' place. I went to her, visited her church and got invited over for lunch and we got to know each other and it took off from there. It was strategic. He came deliberately, and my dad invited him without my knowledge. This is my husband, Keith, that you may not have met. We met at Duke working at the hospital. And we've been married for 36 years this fall, so we realize we're the oldies. My name is Bethany, husband Jeff. We met as teenagers working in a restaurant and through several years and mutual friends came to be friends together and then had a long distance relationship and engagement, got married in 2014. I'm Rick. We've been married 33 years this year, 32 years this year. And we met in 1991 at church. I was a member. I had been converted a year earlier, was in a big downtown church, had a large singles group. And a friend brought her there, and I saw her and walked over. And how did you know I was interested, honey? Because you were holding a really, really hot cup of coffee in a plastic cup. And it was melting in my hand while I was chatting. And it was melting in his hand. Can I help you? No, no, no, no. I'm fine. I'm fine. Great. That was the answer, right? That's good. Number, okay, so we're going to go ahead and just do these questions in order. So, first question. Which expectation did you have going into marriage which has been most challenged? Oh, and this is how this will work. I've told the panel that they do not have to answer every question. Whatever they feel prompted to answer would be terrific. So usually you're talking about the beginning of your marriage, so that was a long time ago. But I think in all honesty, I was 32 when I married Sharon, and I've been single a long time. My mother was pretty much a one-way ministry direction for my dear mother, who loved me with all her heart. And without even knowing it, I think, you're going in expecting everything to fit you. And you find out the first couple of years of marriage that not everything fits you, and you're not fitting her. And it's one of the reasons why marriage is such a benefit to us as Christians. You have to learn to love. You have to learn. I'm still learning to love. Boy, in those days, I was learning a lot about how to love. And I think probably in my own mentality, it was. There were some heated times when I heard the words, I am not your mother. And I'm like, well, of course you're not my mother. I think in retrospect it was. But she loved me. My mother loved me with all her heart. It does things for me. There it is. I don't know. We'll have counseling available for our panel. I don't think we've lived the full span yet, but I think we were pretty prepared for marriage. I had parents who were very honest and open in their home about what to expect with it. really excellent counseling beforehand and discussions separately and together that helped mine some of those early pitfalls. But definitely unexpected currencies in marriages, how often we have to actually have a discussion about who gets time for personal hygiene or any task around the house that you would think you could just go do. That's great. Anybody else? I think another really big thing that is, I don't know if challenged is the right word because I expected it. I didn't understand the depth of what I didn't know. I knew there were lots of things I didn't know. I knew that I was going to grow experientially through marriage and through having children, but growing to really appreciate at a deeper level things like 1 Thessalonians 5.24, that he who calls you is faithful and he will surely do it. And so when it seems like things are piling up and I don't know how I'm going to handle this, this, this, and also be there for Bethany and the kids, growing in that dependence on the Lord. So it's not something I didn't expect, but it's seeing more of a fullness of that. Would anybody else like to answer? Yeah, I think I would echo what Rick said about learning to love. I think I went into marriage somewhat delusional. I think my wife was more of an idol than a spouse. And I think my heart was more selfish than, by God's grace, it is today. But early in marriage, I thought it was going to be all about me. I still do at times. But I've learned over the season that it's about God. And his grace has given me more patience and a clearer vision of what marriage should be. Yes, and he was surprised. And I then was surprised that he was so surprised that it was all about him. And it really hit, I think, when our first child was born. infatuated with the child and I forgot about him until about six months old and he was like, I'm here. So I needed the reminder, oh yeah, there you are. And the baby wouldn't be here if it weren't for you, so thank you for this. I think, like Bethany said, we went into marriage with pretty realistic expectations, partly because of really good examples in our parents. I was only 19, so I didn't have a chance to have many expectations. And we have a big age gap. So Bill had been living in a house of single guys and the house was disgusting. Except for his room. So I think he was just glad to be living with someone who wasn't disgusting. So I think expectations are different depending on your background and where you're coming from and how aware you are of grace in your own heart. I think as well, in my case, just seeing a long pattern of godly parents working things out was helpful. And then I think, having been single until I was 29, I was just really thankful to be married. I didn't know it would ever happen, so I was just blown away. Next question. What has been the hardest season for your marriage or and or, the sweetest season in your marriage, and with either of those, what was God teaching you through it? I think for us, some of the hardest seasons really have been external pressures on us both together. So we went through a really tough time in a church where I was dealing with a sexual abuse case and it wasn't, yeah, it was just a very difficult situation. And it led to the death of a church plant that we were deeply involved in. And we, yeah, it was very hard, but at the same time, it really brought us together through the difficulty. So I would say for us, I think by God's grace, some of the hardest times, including with my sickness, have been sweet. I think it's a really human tendency to create a dichotomy. where the hard things are bad and the easy things are good. And in God's economy, it's usually the hard things that bring the most good and the most sweetness eventually. So yeah, I think when you're going through something hard, not having that dichotomy in your head is really helpful for a marriage. That's so true. I'll let you talk about those first four years. Um... When we got married, both of us were raised in non-Christian households. I was raised Roman Catholic, and I won't try to characterize Jennifer's faith upbringing because she yells at me when I do. But when we had had our second child and we were moving from Tennessee to Pennsylvania, I got into a practice where I was working 24-7 for years and I often worked on Sundays and we didn't have a church and I would say to Jennifer you have to take the kids to church and that is the furthest thing from being the spiritual leader of a household and for Over four years, we struggled without a church home. We didn't have a church family. We had parents we could call on who were not believers. And we were in a lost place. And God, in his providence, built a PCA church that we could see the steeple from our yard. And that was November of 1997. And we attended the first day. The church opened its doors. And I think when people ask for their testimony, I think at that point, I was a smoldering wick. And through that, the ministry of that church, the Holy Spirit fan, that smolder into a fire. And we realized, based on, again, what Rebecca said, that those hardships honed our hearts to understand the need for God, the need for participation in a church, and the need for brothers and sisters who believe in the Lord Jesus. The hardest season that we've had so far was definitely 2020 to 2022 in that time of of seminary training for me, it was just hard to be together because Sunday's the Lord's Day, and that's a busy day when you work for the church. And then Monday morning, I'm driving up to Charlotte to fit in as many classes as I can, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday morning, get back Wednesday night in time to teach the youth. Thursday, we have a little bit of family time, and she works Friday and every other Saturday. And that's the week for three years. And yet, Again, echoing what has been said already, that was really a sweet time when, although it was difficult, seeing the Lord's sustaining work, seeing the Lord's grace, and seeing that we had been prepared for not being in the same place. Because as Bethany mentioned earlier, for the two years that we were dating and engaged, she lived here and I lived in Richmond. And so we knew how to do that and we got to see and rejoice in God's kindness. in that season, especially. It forced intentionality in the togetherness because of how limited it was. And I think if it's more relaxed and doesn't feel, you know, you don't want to have pressure come into it as much as possible, but those can be blessings too. Yeah, I think both of us would probably say, she might say something different. But we've been married about five years, and I was 35 years old when God called me to the ministry. And so I resigned my commission. We were one of those people who the Lord called us to slay the ox and burn the ox cart. It was one of these radical obey or don't obey, and we did. by God's grace. And so I was feeling some five years after our marriage, I'm coming out of seminary where I've just ground myself. I did a four-year program in three years. Why? Because the harder way is the best way. And I think in retrospect, I felt like I was behind. I felt like I had to get after it, where now I realize how young I was. And then I get ordained, and we're poor. We live in a row home in Philadelphia. We've had two children. One of them's colicky. And I'm being very zealous in pursuit of my calling. And again, I was raised that way. As a man, you succeed, and you attack. There were some moments where Sharon's, we actually had a teenager who had a drum set. I'm like, Lord, I mean, come on. Matthew's colicky, the teenage boy next door is playing drums at night, and I'm in Denver with James Montgomery Boyce drinking wine in the United Airlines lounge in between conferences. And I think the benefit was it just became clear to me as that was kind of obviously that's going to go very poorly. I realize, I think, that you're either going to be faithful or you're not. And talk is cheap. And the excuses are there. And you're either going to be a faithful husband. And there's a price tag for that. There are decisions that must be made. And I remember going to her at one point. And we were in a lot of conflict, as the situation would inevitably do. And saying, the truth is that I've been wholesaledly neglecting you. And I want to repent of that. And I really think, in my mind at least, that was the first day of the building of a biblical marriage. The men have to lead. And the husbands and the fathers have to be biblical fathers and husbands. And a wife's in a tough spot, particularly when he's a minister. And I'm very grateful in retrospect. And there was an elder who had talked to me. I deeply resented it. He was a CEO of a company. He says, you're making all the mistakes I made. And I said, oh, here it goes. And everything he said was true. Therefore, I resented it. But the truth is, your E, the talk is cheap. The clock is ticking. You can't do everything. You have to make a decision. And my grid is the goal is to be faithful. The goal is not success. The goal is faithfulness. And I think I look back with a lot of gratitude on the grace the Lord gave us, because that was when we began to have a very, and there was a corresponding response on her part, but that was the hardest time for us, that we were under so much pressure, and we were ill-equipped, and I, at least, was not making immoral choices, but was making wrong choices. And I just had to face the music. You have to answer, too, now. OK. I think there's something to be said for two Christians being married versus building a Christian biblical marriage. And so I think at the moment when the gloves came off and we were really committed to doing that, things changed. And Rick, one morning on a Saturday morning, I think I've said this to my table, maybe even in teaching times, Rick said to me, and guys, I would encourage you to say this to your wives, how can I minister to you today? Because prior to that, we were both just self-protecting. I'm self-protecting what I need to do, my husband's self-protecting what he needs to do. And truly, my commitment that I had learned from much wiser women than myself was that, excuse me, I didn't want to stand in the way of anything the Lord was calling my husband to do, but then I needed to trust that what he was called to do did not mean he was going to abandon me or my family. I really didn't think he would, but there's a trust issue there. So we really had to come together, and we started coming together to make decisions for us. Bethany and Jeff, and one of the reasons why I wanted them on the panel this time is because I have watched over the years, and I've told Bethany this, them beautifully, beautifully orchestrate staying as one while Cove it being in the hospital for a month. I think you were you know, Jeff's traveling back and forth They've got more children coming and I have just I have so much respect for them and for that But we had to learn how to do that at a much later time I think but so that is probably yeah, I would answer that I think it might be helpful I've probably I certainly had the opportunity for a much higher level of celebrity than I currently enjoy I enjoy a small amount now, and it's all I need but I had the opportunity was there for me to do big things and The price tag was obvious if I did this obvious. I And I'm part of organizations where I know most of the big names. I'm in the prayer meetings with them. And almost without fail, the really big name that everyone in you, when you pray together, you're like, thank the Lord I didn't pursue that. The children who don't walk with the Lord, the emotionally devastated wives, the child, the 25-year-old son who's got a website devoted to mocking you. And you're going, ah. And we said, look, the Lord will will make of us what he wants. We're not going to pursue it. We're just going to be faithful. And the grace, there were a lot of things that played into that. You can't avoid that. I mean, you can end up being very successful, but you can't need to be successful and be a faithful husband. If you need to be, then there's only one way to do that, and that is to sacrifice your wife and children on the altar. It was right there. I say to my son Matthew sometimes, the day will come when the hook is in your mouth, and then we'll find out who you are. And that's true for men on so many levels. Wonderful. OK, we're going to move on. And let me put questions four and five together. I long for more spiritual oneness in my marriage, but my spouse is uncomfortable and resistant to things like praying together and spiritually vulnerable conversations. Do you have advice on it or encouragement? Does your answer change for a husband versus a wife? And then the question that goes with that is, how do you help cultivate vulnerability in a marriage when it isn't natural? So I think that the answer does change for a husband versus a wife, first of all. If you're a husband and you have a wife that's not receptive to spiritual oneness and spiritual conversations, the answer is do it anyway. The answer is pray for and with her anyway. The answer is we're going to read at least a paragraph of scripture together and talk about it for a minute. For a wife, it's a very different situation. I think of the words of Peter that, you know, I'm not saying that your husband's necessarily an unbeliever at this stage, but nonetheless, he might be won by the conduct of your spiritual worship, of your spiritual devotion to the Lord. And that's often a humbling example. I'm so grateful for Bethany because when we were first married, she was so much more spiritually mature than I was. And I had somebody that could help me grow. And so, but she was never harping or coming down on me about it, but she was just a positive example. And I think that's the two paths for that question. But we do want to work towards spiritual oneness. I'm trying not to hog the mic, but I want to get on this one. I mean, it's actually right that it's different for men and women. I will say for men, you're different personality types. You have a duty. You must prayerfully do it. And if you're not going to read the Bible with your children and pray with them, it's going to affect their lives. If you're not going to spiritually connect with your wife, and you are you. You're not me. But you do it as you. And just start with prayer. Or maybe talk to a friend. Talk to a pastor. But you must minister spiritually to your wife and children. And if you don't, the price tag's very real. For wives, it is different because of the creation design of God with male headship. means that correcting and demanding of your husband is going to run right against the tide. And so wives need more grace than husbands do in some respects. And so you have to pray. And there's nothing wrong with communicating, respectfully communicating. And how can I help you? He gave her a helper. So he didn't give him a judge. Well, he did give her a judge, but that's not her calling. But she's a helper. And so help him. And look, he's the guy you married. And then pray. And then I was thinking 1 Peter 3, 2, or 1 as well. But I don't think that criticizing and demanding is going to work. It's just not God's design. So pray for it. Start doing your own devotional life. Cultivate your own inner spirituality. Minister to your children and cheerfully invite them in and pray. I would say vulnerability isn't natural. So if that's you feeling like being vulnerable isn't natural, that's all of us. It happens best when you feel safe. And so having that conversation and making sure that you're connected as a couple and he or she understands you are coming to them as a person who is with them and not there to challenge and hurt and drag them down, but really to build up and bring together. And then specifically for a role of woman in this, something that wasn't quite yet mentioned is to get out of our own way. Sometimes we want something in a home that is a good thing, but then if we stand over and dictate exactly what that's supposed to look like while we're telling our husband we want him to lead, that's just, you know, talking out of both sides of our mouth, and that's something when you look at from the outside you can see, but a lot of times when you're in the moment, it can be difficult. Yeah, I think reading question four, it expresses a conflict within a marriage of whomever wrote that question, that one spouse wants one thing, another spouse wants another thing. I have not read the book, when two sinners say I do, but that title is very appropriate, that your spouse is, again, not your God. You have one God and one God only. and your spouse will never fully please you. And so the most important relationship all of us have is that relationship with our Lord and Savior. And when your spouse is not behaving in a way that pleases you, you go to the Lord, you love your spouse because you are one flesh. Your spouse is you. and you have made a vow before God to love, honor, and cherish that spouse. So pray, focus on your spiritual growth, and your ability to extend grace to your spouse. And I paraphrase Bible verses rather than quote them verbatim, but The passage that says that the wife, by living a godly life, can win her spouse over to the Lord. That as you focus on your own sanctification and love your wife as Christ loved the church, being willing to lay his life down for her, I think those difficulties have a way of kind of disappearing by God's grace. The vulnerability question, I'm going to turn to Jennifer. We talked about some of these questions. We talked a little bit. We're not sure exactly about what vulnerability is in terms of whether it's spiritual. Spiritual is probably where we're talking about. But my thoughts with this question was prayer, to pray, live out by example, but also just having wisdom and discernment about how to speak to your husband, when to speak, and always praying, Lord, you know, give me wisdom and discernment how to come to him and say, I need your help in this and how can I be a helper? But that continual prayer for wisdom and how to speak in a way that is loving and coming alongside as a helper. Yeah, so there are times when Jennifer has wanted things and she has learned to read me over the years and knows when I have no bandwidth. And in spite her being vulnerable, she holds her tongue until the appropriate time, so. Hopefully. Yeah, being vulnerable doesn't mean sharing everything because your spouse, like, Keith mentioned bandwidth. Your spouse isn't infinite and doesn't have the capacity to hold everything that you want to offload. That's why you have a savior. But the vulnerability, I want to say to the ladies, if your husband knows you're not going to be discussing his weaknesses and vulnerabilities and shortcomings with girlfriends or your mom or anyone, It's going to be a lot easier to be vulnerable with you for him. And the spiritual oneness, your marriage is only going to last as long as your life, but your spiritual relationship is going to last for eternity. And you're really cheating yourself if you are shortchanging that aspect of your relationship in this life. And if you are looking forward to heaven, this is going to be the big thing. And if you are a believer, why would you shortchange yourself in this life of that blessing and that help and that joy? Just thinking of an uncomfortable spouse, I think it's a good encouragement for those of us men who are here to think of building good relationships with other men in the church. We have faithful ministry from the pulpit, but I think it's often one-on-one friendships. Men, we can encourage each other. There's a bunch of us here, and that can often really strengthen another man who might be uncomfortable. I think maybe in some cases, and it takes wisdom on the part of a wise wife to be strategic in seeking to forge relationships with your husband together with other couples who could maybe be a blessing to you together. And then for encouragement, I grew up with two friends, both of whose dads were very weak spiritually, but their moms were strong. And their moms were godly pillars and they were a tremendous blessing to their children and families and to their husbands. And just sometimes in God's providence, he calls us to different things in this life. There are many things that he doesn't always fix in life. And so resting in him, looking to him and being faithful, he will carry us through. and provide. That's terrific. I'm going to try not to add too much, but for the ladies, I love, and we've talked about this verse in Proverbs 31, she does him good and not harm all the days of her life. And just like Rebecca said, you know, when your husband knows that you're on his team and you're trying to enter into his experience and understand what's on his heart or enter into his team or his work, whatever, in order for them to be forthright and honest with you, they have to know that they can entrust that information to you. And the same way for wives as well, too. When your wives know that you are really holding onto their heart with great care and tenderness, they will want to share with you. So that's what I would add. Okay, let's go ahead and move on. Let's see. Outside of Bible reading and prayer, what is the practice or habit you've implemented that has been most beneficial to your marriage? I think one of the beneficial things for us early on, I'm not sure when we started this, actually when we were engaged, we started keeping a journal together of prayer requests, answers to prayer, things we were praying for ourselves, for each other. Yeah, and different categories in our relationship, sort of with each other to check up on, you know, how are we doing and I don't know, just different areas emotionally together, physically together. How's our eating habits? How's our sleep? It just, it was kind of maybe weird in a way, but anyways, it was helpful. And No topic was off the table through that, and we did that for a number of years. We don't do it anymore, but I think it was really helpful. And then something later on that we did as the kids got, well, even when they were smaller, but there was sort of a gap. So we tried to go for a walk or just spend some time where possible. Our aim was every day. It didn't work out that way. But often, and now that our kids are older, we just leave the house and go for a walk together. But when they were younger, we put them in a stroller and we went. And that would just give us some time where I was away from work, she was out of the house, and we just talk. Debrief on the day. That was helpful. In a sort of, put this negatively, I think something that's been helpful is there are no video games, there's almost no social media. Well, when Keith and I talked about this, we said also intentional time together. And that has proved to be very wonderful as he retired. And we have developed things we like to do together. And we do have couples that have said it's been a shock as they've retired because they've gone in different directions in terms of the things they enjoy doing together. So I think at a young, Throughout your marriage, it's helpful to find something that you can connect on and be together and during that time have intentional conversation on a daily basis, if possible. And some of those walks, we'd be going in a big circle through the neighborhood, and my wife would have to tell me that when we get to that large tree over there, you need to quit talking about work. And then we would start to focus on our children and our marriage and other things. I'm still working on quitting talking about women. What's to criticize? We're working on talking. Sharon mentioned it earlier. making the regular habit of saying, how can I serve you? How can I minister to you? And your spouse knows that you mean it. And I think for me personally, too, realizing as a husband, so I'm thinking more on that side, that it's my calling to spiritually and emotionally nurture this woman. I am her husband. And becoming excited about that, one of the big things that will go on in my life, and one of the best things in my life, will be to play a singular, not the only role, but a vital role, in the spiritual and emotional nurture of my wife. And kind of getting that in my head and getting my mind around that, I think, was very helpful. But I think, Sharon mentioned earlier, the regular practice of saying, how can I serve you? How can I minister to you? Super. I'm going to jump down the page to actually a couple of parenting questions. You're going to skip the vasectomy? Let's just go to that one. Jeff told me he wanted to do it. Not the vasectomy part. Okay, here's what I'm going to say about that in general. About the vasectomy question. Read the question. Oh, they don't know the question. Oh, I thought you all had the question. I was going to kind of deftly say it. Nah, there's no deft. They're just charging in. This is what is obviously on people's minds. This is what she has to deal with on a daily basis. No, no, it's all good. OK, so can you please share your thoughts, experience, and the Bible's teaching on family planning and the Christian liberty we have in terms of deciding we do or do not want more kids or the spacing of children? Can you speak to more permanent methods of contraception, such as vasectomies or getting tubes tied, if it isn't medically recommended? And maybe touch on, what does a posture of sacrificial love look like when spouses differ on the issue? So here's what I want to say about this. And I know Jeff has a lot he wants to add. But others may, too. I have two things, basically, I'm thinking of. One is we all stand before the Lord. And the question of how many children you should have and how are we going to do all that is one that you're going to make before the Lord, and I'm not your judge, and nobody else is your judge. And I think of Paul saying, I do not judge myself. Let each man stand before the Lord on his own. Because there is no Bible command to have as many children as you possibly can. There is no sin in that necessarily. The other side is the Bible's overwhelmingly pro-baby worldview, where God loves babies, and he wants covenant children, and children are a blessing from the Lord. And so I think what happens is, as you make these decisions, you reveal to yourself and to each other where you really are spiritually. And if you say to me, we really don't want more children, well, the question for you to ask is why. I mean, some people will just say, I want more time for myself. That might not withstand a lot of scrutiny biblically. And often what you're really saying is, I'm not a mature Christian. And I'm not saying if you don't have a lot of children, you're not a mature Christian. But those kinds of answers may reveal, and put it that way, that there's spiritual weakness and need for spiritual growth that's really behind this. In general, I will say biblical Christians are welcoming towards children. We took the policy in our married life of the sovereignty of God birth control plan. Whatever. And we had more children than we thought we would have. And then we wish we had more. And we lost our last child in a miscarriage, and we still think about that child. But you are never ready to have a child, and you never regret having one. But these are deeply personal things. In a marriage, I mean, it's an awful lot to demand that a woman have children she doesn't want or is not prepared for. This is where a rising tide lifts all boats. We need to grow spiritually, because the answer is often going to be, I maybe have some character defects, or I need areas of growth. And it may be something completely different. And they may be sober judgments. Look, God's called me to a groundbreaking missionary endeavor in Tanzania, and that limits the size of my family. I am not your judge. All right, fine. So those are decisions we make, and I think it's really important that couples be able to make those decisions without judgment. On the other hand, biblical Christians are very pro-trial. The Bible is very pro-trial. Vasectomy and tying tubes. My main thought is it's a long-term solution to what is probably a short-term problem. And in most cases, it's probably not wise. So again, I want to be careful. Maybe you've had your tubes dyed or whatever. I don't want to know. But I'm not trying to judge you. Usually, it's a long-term solution to a short-term problem. And it's hard for me to imagine a scenario that's not medically mandated where I would recommend that to a couple. And it strikes me as... unlikely to be wise. Keith, you're the doctor. Doctor in residence. I'm at the risk of being a heretic. I'm going to take a slightly different approach than Rick. Jennifer and I, again, earlier in our marriage, I was working crazy. We made an intentional decision to delay the birth of our third child, who's sitting in this room. somewhere, because I wasn't available to help Jennifer. She was overwhelmed with two kids, and having a third at that time was, we felt in our wisdom that we would not be adequate parents to nurture those children, given our stresses at that time. And whether those stresses be time, finances, whatever, that was a decision that we made. I'm a strong believer that of the true validity of the secondary agent, that the Lord in his sovereign goodness to us has given us a lot of good things in this world, including medicine, medications to treat infections, medications to treat what have you, and surgical expertise. And if you again the decision is yours it's a very personal decision but if you decide as a couple that you will want to avail yourselves of those medical technologies that uh... the lord has provided for us uh... for good and for ill uh... then that's a personal decision i think that if you know you don't want to have more children those procedures can provide a blessing as far as future sexual intimacy because your family is full and you don't have to worry about contraception within your marriage. Just a reminder that those four years that we were waiting for more children, we didn't have a church. And it has reminded us, as we've talked about this, the blessing of the church and the Lord in these decisions. Something that's been really helpful just to think about, even in terms of worldview, a pastor in Michigan was talking about the creation mandate, you know, be fruitful and multiply. Those aren't the same thing. fill the earth and subdue it. So we are called to fill the earth, but we're not called to fill it with chaos. And I know there will be chaotic times when you have many small children, but that will pass. But that's just something to keep in mind. We are called to fill the earth, but we're not called to fill it with chaos. So we need to be managing well the families that we do have and raising well the children that God has given us. I was just thinking about, in this question as well, capacity for chaos. And we don't have the same capacity that maybe others do for- We're not the marvelous. Yeah. The second part of this question was if a husband and wife differ. And again, this is a really intense conversation. But I would say, especially for women, examine why that desire for a child is there and talk with your husband about it. Because sometimes there can be a need to just keep putting, this is not a thing, but holding on to something. trying to fill what is a lack. And if there is a difference in a marriage about if that's a child or not, there's already a bigger question than are we having more children. I would just underscore something I think everyone's kind of hitting around. There are some things that the Bible speaks to straight up, black and white, this is this, this is that, do, don't do, these kinds of things. And there are other things that we're left to make deductions from. And so I think something that Rick said that was really helpful is, what is the reason that you don't want to do this? Is it because I want more time for me? Then I think that is a spiritual red flag. Whereas, is it because I don't know that I can do this with all of the other responsibilities and all of the other children there already are? That's a very different conversation. So this is not a black and white, always right, always wrong issue answer. And it's not sinful for a couple to say, we can't afford any more children. I mean, there are pretensions. Keith's certainly right. God has given you secondary agency, and it's very real. But the why question is really important. There's also the, why do I want another child? I mean, there's all those sorts of things. Wonderful. Thank you. We're going to move on to some parenting questions. I'm convicted about starting family worship, but I don't know how to lead the teaching and discussion part. What is your process? So it depends on the age. It's always going to look different based on where your children are. My oldest is seven, going on 19. But nonetheless, I also have to keep my boy engaged to is all over the place. And so family worship is really simple and basic for us. I read no less than a paragraph, no more than a chapter of scripture, and I spend maybe two to five minutes explaining it. We pray and we'll sing a song. And that's what it looks like. It doesn't have to be some big over-the-top thing. I'm not reading commentaries to prepare for for that little explanation. I know, I'm slacking. I'm sorry, Rick. But it's just the consistent faithfulness. And you say, well, that doesn't feel like a whole lot. I'm forever indebted to Ben Shaw for this illustration where he said, you know, I don't remember what I had for lunch last Tuesday. But I know it sustained me physically. And in the same way, even if the spiritual feeding of our children does not seem like much in the moment, and you don't remember it the next day, or they don't remember it the next day, it did work. It did sustain them spiritually. Just another practical one for small children, planning for it to change in the future and have a little more formality of setting to it. But right now, while their bodies are busy, is a good time to talk to their minds. So we do this at the dinner table. One of the things about coming to faith later in life is we did not have family worship. We did not do these things that, in retrospect, we wish we would have. And so all of you who have young children, praise God that you're in a place in your life now where your children will be blessed in ways that our children were not. And that's the biggest. It's praise to God, but it's also remorse that we didn't come to faith earlier. So, praise God and whatever it is, use it for His glory. Well, I'm also, we were just visiting our oldest son who's 34. And we asked this and apologized for the lack of. But he said, we did talk about spiritual things as we were walking along. But he said, that would have been nice if we had done that more. So just the walking along is a good time to do it. Back to the walks. Bring your kids and talk about the Lord. I forget what it's called, maybe one of you pastors will know, but Jason Holopoulos' little book, is it Let the Children Worship? I don't know that one. OK. Well, add it to our list. He has examples in the back, I think it's that book, of what family worship looks like for different people in his church. And it's very refreshing and confirming to read that, oh, yes, OK, you do end up talking about Smurfs or birthday cake or something very strange in the middle of Leviticus. But another good tip that someone gave me, an older person gave me years ago, is just do proverbs. And so the kids and I did proverbs for years before school every day. And just that they're very vivid. They're very practical. Like a brother offended is more unyielding than a strong city. And OK, let's talk about how this will look in our house today. And yeah, it is not complicated. And it can be fun. Our kids really, really enjoy it now. I do think it could be hard, the teaching and discussion part, if you haven't done that. Just to get over the hump of starting to talk as a family, my parents started trying to do it when I was 16. And I tell you, me and my brothers did not like it. We were pretty resistant. We sat there, we thought it was super awkward. Now in hindsight, we're all sad that we were not helpful to my parents, and we all do it. So by God's grace, they did the hard work of changing something midstream, and we're very thankful now. So I would say if you haven't done it, you're halfway through, give it a shot. It doesn't have to be perfect, just read the Bible, say something about it, pray together, sing something, off tune, great. Just honor the Lord and have a good time of fellowship. I'm going to actually, I'm sorry, go ahead, tag on. I was going to tag on a question. Can I do that real quick and then after you answer? So, and they didn't get this question beforehand, but it's something I thought might be helpful. How does a wife handle family worship when she has a husband who is a professing believer who's very uncomfortable praying in front of their children or reading scripture. How do you encourage him? I like what Bill said and Rick said, too, in terms of just a little. You don't have to be at seminary preaching level to your children, just a little. But go ahead, Rebecca. I'll just add that to it. But go ahead and comment, and then we can pass around for the next. Did I mess up? I'm so sorry. No, no, no. That's fine. Just super encourage your husband in this, and be very, very thankful for however it turned out. Just be thankful for effort, and encourage him in the next effort, and be praying for him in it. That's great. Something that would be a really easy pitch-off point is we have it published what our sermon texts are going to be, preview. maybe skip my name for family study, but I'm going through. As the jumping off point for comfort. They must. And little boys greatly revel in the destruction of Rome, which is good. But you can go through the passage and at least identify who are we going to be hearing about on Sunday. Are these good people? Are these bad people? How do we see the Lord working here? And then that's going to be affirmed by your minister. And your children see daddy and mommy agreeing with someone they hear of, probably with authority and respect. And it's just feeding the cycle together of being supported by your church and using things that are already available. When I first got here, we had a much respected and beloved elder who never, ever sang and would not sing in church. And it was kind of awkward. And I went to him. I forget how it came up. But I said, is there a reason you never sing? And you kind of stand there. You're an elder. And he said, when I was a little boy, a woman told me the world would be a better place if I did not sing. And he's like 85 years old now. No, really. And how wounded people are. And words that have really crippled them. And those words crippled him. Well, there's probably something like that in your husband's life. If that's him, there's some reason for the insecurity. There's some pain. There's a fear. I thought Bethany was very wise earlier when she said the more that your relationship is one of acceptance and nourishment, then evaluation and criticism will make all the difference. There's a lot, a lot of people who are remarkably more open and able when they're in an environment they perceive as accepting than they will ever be when they think it's an evaluative environment. And again, I'll just say, doing a little bit regularly when it's sincere and from the heart, if you're a man and you're really that way and you're super quiet, a very short, awkward word from you from the heart will mean more to your children than any sermon I'll ever preach. And so, I hope that's helpful. Okay, super. What's a good way to navigate parenting disagreements when it is a significant issue such as educational choices? Sharon and I would have a regular meeting about each child. OK, let's talk about Hannah. What do you see going on? What do I see going on? What are our shared aim? What's our strategy? Pray for Hannah, move to Matthew. And I'm a real believer, well, the Bible's a real believer, that oneness is the chief biblical ideal of marriage. And the two shall be one is Jesus' summary. And so we are to pursue, and sometimes that requires Let's, well, we disagree, let's take some time and pray about it. And being willing to listen. Here's why. And sometimes when you're explaining why, you realize that you want public school or you want homeschooling or you want whatever for reasons that are not about the child but about you. So the whole communication process. And I think that's the biggest thing. And one of the great benefits of children, there's so many wonderful things about raising children, but one of them is it really forces you to become a team. It should. You need to be a team. And so to cultivate the team and decision making and a little patience. I'm older now so I'm far more patient and I've been working on it. And it may not be as urgent as it seems. And so you make the decision together. Now if you're really at a... There are times when someone's got to make a decision. The Bible says wives submit to your husbands. The one thing I said to Sharon was we will not be in more than one co-op. We cannot do a Monday, Wednesday co-op for some children and a Tuesday, Thursday co-op. The answer is no. You pick a co-op, but it's only one. Everybody goes to the same co-op. And she said, yes, sir. Yes, yes, no. It was actually very wise. And actually, the wonderful thing, again, I don't want to say a whole lot, but the wonderful thing about having a Christian man who loves the Lord is that that's how he's leading you. So it's easier when I know that's the case and he really has my good intentions in mind, that I can say, okay, I'm going to receive wisdom in that even though I really, really wanted to do everything. I'm going to just respect that. It actually was the best decision. I mean, it really was. But it's still exceptional. The other one was, here's your deadline. By this date, you need to make a curriculum decision. You're not allowed to talk about curriculums. until the end of the school year, because obsessing, oh, I made the wrong choice. No, we're going to pray for this curriculum. But really want to encourage oneness. Finances and children are often sources of division. They should be sources of oneness. And the two shall be one. So prayerfully discuss it, work it out, and be together in the decision that you make. In so many of these things, what's more important than making the right decision is having the right dynamics of how you do these things. And you can probably make any of them work, and there probably is one that's better than another. But making the right decision in the wrong way is probably more harmful in some cases than making the wrong decision. I would just add that what I have found really helpful is in that initial conversation, when you have a disagreement about what to do, have the foundational conversation about where do we want to go? What's our ambition? What's our goal? And now we're talking about wanting the same thing, and now what's the best route to get there. So we know we're trying to go to the same destination off the bat. That's gonna be really helpful in the conversation. And then the other thing in addition to that is that as Rick was saying, eventually a decision does have to be made. And I would just say that a wise man is hesitant to put his foot down and wants to have that conversation as long as it takes to be on the same page. But when the deadline is the deadline and the clock is the clock and you're gonna strike midnight, wives submit to your husbands? I will say this too, be patient. Let's say, this would be more common in our circles, the husband is determined that the children be homeschooled and the wife is just like, well, I'm just totally not equipped to do that. Well, be patient and share your hearts and work it through together. But I have these expectations and you're the one to fulfill my expectations is bad biblical marriage. And pray if you really believe your children should go to a private school, then pray for the money. But if you want your wife to do something as a husband, and I'm sure it works the other way too, be patient. And I think one of the biblical expressions that has come to mean more and more to me is wait upon the Lord. To me, waiting upon the Lord, this is so important in ministry, is not doing the right thing the wrong way. I have a vision of what the right thing is. I have no good way of implementing it. That means I need to wait on the Lord. And let the Lord work it out. Be a little patient. I think the decision regarding your children's education is twofold. I mean, there's the how to read, write, and do arithmetic. And then there's the issue of fighting against the flesh, the devil, and the world. And a lot of the decisions regarding child's education our decisions made as parents to protect your children from the world and some of the horrible influences that the world and teachers can have with your children. We sent all of our kids through public schools and I'm not advocating or dis-advocating for public schools. But I think the salvation of your children is up to God's election. The primary evangelists for your children are you as parents and the church. The school, whether it's public school or private school or whatever, is of lesser importance. And we found that our children going to public schools opened doors for conversations that were amazing that would not have happened if they had not gone to public school. Our second son in kindergarten, the teacher asked, what do you like most about winter vacation? Of course, it wasn't Christmas vacation, it was winter vacation. The kids would answer one at a time and the teacher would write it on the chalkboard what the child said. Our son said, it's baby Jesus birthday. That was the one thing the teacher would not write on the chalkboard because of fear working in a public school. And our son came home and said, mom and dad, why did our teacher not write that on the chalkboard? And the Lord used that opportunity as just a very sweet time for us to speak about faith and the importance of Jesus as his savior. So God is sovereign, and thanks be to him. I'm not sure I have anything to add to that. OK, super. I think we can keep going here for just a little bit. I'm going to combine two questions so we can get to, we can kind of get to most of them. I'm going to combine questions 12 and 13 this way. First, can a parent have righteous anger toward their child? If so, how should that be expressed? And secondly, this has to do in terms of, disciplining, how do we work that out together? My spouse works very long hours, so when he is home with the kids, he's tired and also doesn't want to be a disciplinarian with the kids. I feel like I need more backup and I also worry about his relationship with the kids long term. How can I navigate this in a helpful, encouraging way rather than adding more burden to him? So we can answer both. You can answer both or one or the other. I'll just answer 13, so that's the second one. If you are married to a woman who's home with multiple children, she's working longer hours than you, she's more tired than you, and she doesn't want to be the disciplinarian either. And I would just encourage husbands. So there have been two main seasons in our lives where Bill was working once it was, well, yeah, seven days a week, most evenings. So one time, full-time PhD, full-time pastoral internship, part-time teaching, all at the same time. And another time, full-time church planting and full-time professor. So he would, even in those seasons, spend 15 minutes with the kids when he got home. It was just 15 minutes to half an hour totally locked in on the kids. And then he would tuck them in, and it It does not take long. That's like 45 minutes out of your day. And to this day, they're his favorite parent. And still, if I have to tuck Louisa in bed, it's a sad night. And she will say, no, please, please, please, not you. And just like that is minimal investment for incredible, incredible payoffs. So just prioritize that relationship. It does not take a lot of time and it does not take a lot of energy. As husbands, we do need our wives' encouragement. I remember those long times, and especially where the stress is mixed in. Rebecca, sometimes I'd be sitting at the dinner table, zoned out, thinking about something. The kids would be talking. She'd be like, honey? You know, there? Just in a polite and gentle and loving way. But yeah, so I think there are ways that as wives, just coming alongside, loving, encouraging, saying, honey, I need help. I don't, you know, as a husband, even if we're feeling wiped out, if our wife comes alongside and says, you know, can you please help me with this? We'd be hard-hearted if we'd say no. And sometimes that means getting help. At one point we did have an older teenager from the church come in. So there are creative ways to get help. But get help if you need it. When we talked about this, I resonated with the question because I was the one home. and you were working the long hours for 37 years. So I just think, as the helper, I felt that I needed to address the things. A lot of times they were small things. So that when he got home, those 45 minutes would be fruitful. And they wouldn't be, let me just dump everything that happened today on you, on top of everything that he's been dealing with all day. So I was mindful of that. And I think, I hope that that was helpful to you. It's a good time to ask. The bigger things when they got to be teenagers, I addressed them, but then, of course, I let them know what had gone on. Thankfully, there weren't a lot of those big things. Yeah, I think discipline changes with the age of your children. And if it's something that deserves a conversation, that's something that a godly father and husband needs to step up for. I think if it's a two-year-old who displays willful disobedience and throws a toy into his mother's face, that's something that the discipline cannot wait until dad gets home from work. My answer was more along 13 as well. Just thinking of a couple of different aspects of this. One of them, it can be a failure sometimes when we're tired and weak to want to offload on to someone else. And sometimes we've been addressing issues, issues, issues all day. And to make sure when we're asking our husband to step in, it's really to address the issue and not to make me feel rescued in a selfish way. And also preparing your children for when daddy comes home I think is really important in fostering that relationship when time is short and precious and viewing daddy as a positive person and someone we love and discipline is built on relationship. We don't discipline people we don't have a relationship with and it's bringing it about to have community again when there has been a wrong and having that pursuit of confession and restoration. Yeah, I don't have much substantive to add to what's been said, except that if done well and done consistently, it does also not take a whole lot of time. It turns out that Bethany being able to say, I will tell your father about this, is a real quick way to tighten up James. But he knows that it comes from someone who loves him. And then maybe if I could touch on question 12, since we were trying to pair these together. Can a parent have righteous anger toward their child? And if so, how is that expressed? I think our children need to know that we take sin seriously and that there can be a righteous anger at their actions and at what they've done and at what that's done to others in the household. But the discipline is never to be administered in that state of anger. It's a very helpful thing to say, go to your room, Let them go. Take that time. Get collected. What are you going to say? How are you going to handle this? And then go and make it very clear. This is what you did. This is what comes with that. And I'm doing this because I love you, and I want you to not suffer the greater consequences that come from not turning from sin. Yeah. I wanted my wife, when I walked in the door, to say, OK, the sheriff is in town. I mean, and I definitely was. I mean, when you got pumped up to me, there was a premium you paid, and everybody knew it. Because it's not fair to her, and to me, it's our manly calling, we're to do those things. But the wife's gonna do the great majority of the spanking and the discipline and those sorts of things. As they get older, when discipline becomes more of a proof, and it becomes, in many cases, serious conversations, both the father and the mother have complementary but different roles, and both are greatly needed. They've got to be done. And so I do think the husband has got to do that. I think the bigger question here is we have choices to make about our lives. And if the father is not able to parent the children, there's going to be a price tag for that. Now, maybe the father in this case is the world's greatest heart surgeon. And every day, 14 people live who would have died if he had not worked those hours. That's a tough situation. Maybe there's a situation where you maybe shouldn't have a lot of kids, I mean, when you're doing that. I mean, because how do you say, well, I'm just going to let people die? Well, even if you are the world's greatest heart surgeon and all those hours every day is doing huge amounts of good and people are living, you still got to make a choice. And it's a real choice with respect to your children. And it's a choice. That's what I meant earlier about what does faithfulness require to me? What other things need to happen for me to be a faithful husband and father? And I mean, this situation here is not going to be faithful in the long term. It can happen in short terms and does happen in short terms. But it cannot where the mother's wondering, does he really connect with the kids? Does he have time for them? It is what it is. And so if there's some legitimate reason where you are fairly unique, well, then maybe you should have fewer kids. And I mean that. But for 90% of the time, maybe you need a new job. Structure beats good intention. I was at a board meeting. I was in Atlanta at the denominational headquarters yesterday where I made a comment about a thing. This system doesn't work. And you can manually overwrite it in the short term. In the long term, it will break down. This system does not work. And you can manually override it in the short run. In the long run, it will break down. But I do want to say, fathers, suck it up a little bit. Be the sheriff. Now, I want to talk about the anger. 95% of the times, anger is the enemy of good parenting. And I think particularly of men. A wife says to me, my husband got angry. You said husband. That is sufficient. I mean, men have testosterone. Men are passionate people. And anger then, for most men, is one of the most important things to be sanctified, particularly in parenting. It's been so long. I'm trying to remember. I just wanted to either bang my head through the wall or kill them. And it's just crazy. I'm still looking forward to being a grandparent and having none of those feelings. Isn't she lovely? We must sanctify our anger. Anger is keeping us from accomplishing the goals that we have. The words that we spoke angrily hurt them and undermine the things. And women get angry, too. Now, there is righteous anger, and there are times to do it, but it needs to be with great self-control. There have been some times. I look back on some parenting things that I thought were particularly effective where I was really outraged at a child. But it was because I was self-controlled, and I conveyed to the child, I'm really horrified by what happened. And we're going to talk about the characteristics of this happening. Look your father in the eye. Your father loves you, and I'm really angry with you. And there is righteous anger. 95% of it is anger. It's a big deal, particularly with spanking, to the extent you go, yeah, good luck, pal. I'm the one he just, he looked me in the eyes and lied to me, and you know, I know, trust me, I know. But self-control, getting your, and some of us are more hot-tempered than others. Anger is a big problem in parenting, and it will undermine, and I will say the angry mood. You know, where you're in the doghouse and your child grows up. I mean, many people here will say, I grew up in a home where we lived under the cloud of my mother's anger. And they will deal with that the rest of their lives. And the Lord will give them grace. And he gives other things. Try not to be that mother. Or my father, he came in and we all just froze up because he was so angry. It's a very common thing. It's something that we really have to say, OK, and go to the Lord and say, why am I reacting this way? And memorize Bible verses, and talk to your pastor, and pray together. God gives you spiritual power, but anger is a real problem, but a very common one. So. Super. Thank you. Let me go on to question 15. How should you handle your parents that have a terrible marriage? Confront? Ignore? They've given up and it's sad, but they're difficult to be around and our kids are starting to notice. I'll try to be brief. Leave and cleave is a big thing. And you can't fix your parents' marriage. Again, just like it's hard for a wife to boss her husband around because God designed the other way, so with the child-parent thing. And it's very hard to be your parents' counselor. And you're getting a lot of baggage. The child's criticizing the parent. I'm not trying to criticize. It's really tough. I think you love them, and you pray for them, and you exercise the prudence if it's really, I mean, if your children get lots of bad examples, and as Keith was saying, you talk about it, you know. But I think it's very hard to handle your parents' terrible merits. More often, you need to kind of either passively or actively protect your family from the issues of that one. But I'll stop there. I would just add, as, you know, I've dealt with, particularly with my father, who was very confrontational with me and with my family, and would weaponize the fifth commandment, honor your father and mother. And I just want to say to anyone who's dealing with that or anything similar to that, honor thy father and thy mother does not mean make thy father and thy mother feel honored. You're not a slave to their interpretation, their perception, their emotional state. like Paul says in Romans 12.18, if possible, so far lies in you, live at peace with all men. And so that means doing honoring things without being a slave to the manipulation of that. And then as far as kids are starting to notice, what Rick said is absolutely right. Leave and cleave. I needed to protect my wife and my children from that influence. They're not all to that level, right? And so that's a rare thing to hit that pinnacle. But be aware that that is a live possibility. Yeah, as much as you can, love and respect that person individually and not just in how you view their relationship. As far as children, when they're noticing discrepancies with people they love, that you say are things that aren't right, that people they love are doing, that is a challenging conversation. And sometimes there is just to swallow the awkwardness and say the truth in front of people who know the truth and aren't following it, but mostly having the bigger conversations away from the person who is exhibiting this, if possible. And then sometimes there's that blessing of the words of truth coming out of a child's mouth to that person later, and they can be more receptive, and mostly prayer. just praying that the Lord would get hold of their hearts if they're not believers, that they would come to Christ, and that you would just be a witness of love for them towards each other. Yeah, I think the only thing I would add is that your parents are created in the image of God and deserve your respect to that extent. And be careful that when you are trying to make excuses for your parents in front of your children or explain it, Your children may not be perceiving what you are perceiving, and your children may think grandma and granddad are the greatest thing in the world. So you have to be very careful not to disparage people to others. Jennifer and I were convicted on a vacation. My sister was with us, and she was miserable in our eyes. And we talked to our children and said, well, should we invite aunt so-and-so to join us next year at our family vacation or not, because she did this, she did this, she did this. And her oldest son said, well, Mom and Dad, I'd prefer to focus on the good things about my aunt. Yeah, I think we described that our parents were not good examples in marriage. I think it taught me what I did not want in the marriage. But when the children perceive those things, I think just to pray, invite them to pray for them, if they're at that point, and encourage them that way. Because, yeah, the Lord sovereignly will use both the good and the evil. Yeah, that's absolutely true. So I grew up in a context where my parents and my grandparents all had amazing marriages, three very different personality sets and very different circumstances. but very happy, but in the extended family, so mostly aunts and uncles, just disaster. So serial adultery, addictions, one who got lost in the federal prison system, we still don't know where he is. So we grew up with extremely stark contrasts and very clear, sin brings misery and holiness brings happiness. this is where this leads in a marriage. And so the Lord really used the bad marriages that were around us as children because we were in a good, healthy, safe marriage and in a good church. We could see this is the way of blessing and that is the way of destruction. And so it was actually really useful in our lives from the very beginning. Just in the whole context where we deal with this, kind of the spiritual family of the church is so important. We have our biological families, the Lord has put us there. We have our relatives, the brokenness there. But such a blessing to be in a church, to encourage each other as we all struggle with these things. We all bear these things in various ways. But also to have, you know, other grandparents for our kids and, you know, other aunts and uncles spiritually. It's just an incredible blessing. So to encourage each other. Terrific. Let's close on a very positive note, so this will be your final comment. To men, to the guys, how do you practically day-to-day fulfill the biblical command to love your wife as Christ loves the church? And to wives, how do you practically day-to-day fulfill the role of suitable helper and companion to your husband while at the same time submitting to your husband's headship? Actually you can have more than one comment if you want. I try every day, every morning, I haven't always been faithless, but to pray for Rebecca. On my own, in the evenings we do devotions together, in the morning on our own. So praying for her and then just seeing how she's doing, coming alongside. And sometimes doing little things, like I know she's really busy or she's been sick, and just trying to step in to pick up in something that would be sort of her area, might be a sink of dishes or whatever. Just trying to step in as a man and say, hey, I know you're wiped out. I'm going to pick up a little bit of what you ordinarily would do. So I think those ways. Yeah, when the kids were little, I started realizing he's been in a professional setting all day, and he comes home, and there are little people and a wife who probably needs a shower. And that's not very nice to come home to. So from quite early on, I've said to the kids, OK, let's blitz. Daddy's going to be home in half an hour. We call it blitzing. So pick up all your things, put them away. If there's stuff outside, put it away so that he doesn't pull up and there are like bikes and balls on the lawn and the hose is dribbling. Sometimes I put on a clean shirt. So we just try and make it nice for him to come home so that he's happy to come home. that similar because remember we don't like chaos. We don't do that well. So we tried to minimize the chaos when Keith would come home because he'd pretty much been in a chaotic situation all day long. So there's that. The praying for one another. And I was just thinking back to the, I think Sharon or Rick and Sharon talked about the take the boxing gloves off. And I know that that was a pivotal point in our marriage was just being a team, remembering when things were not going well. And it was me. You described the time when I finally took off the boxing gloves and said, oh, well, we're going to do this as a team. We're going to do it together. So just remembering that all the time. I had to pull out the verse to get it straight, but Philippians 2, do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. If you are in a marriage, humble and considering your spouse more significant than yourself. Particularly as husbands realizing in scripture it says that the wives are the weaker vessel. Pray and love. One of mine is just a little different take on it, is to ask what is helpful to your husband. I think I had ideas of certain things that I was like, well, if I'm not doing these, I'm not the wife and mother that he is counting on me to be. And in discussion and frustration, figuring out some of those things I was holding up as expectations for myself and really idols I built up in my heart for me to try and check all those boxes weren't even things he was looking for and were wasted time and effort and we only have so much. so when if you're definitely in a situation where you're feeling overwhelmed and sounding like adding another thing to a routine is Too much talk to him and see are you carrying something? You don't need to be carrying and what can you put in place and then to brag about him? I know that he prays for me every day. It's literally in his schedule. It's planned It's not going to be skipped and I need that Yeah I think it's a couple of things that I try and intentionally do, and one is regularly checking in. I know that at 12 o'clock, she's going to go pick up James from school. How did he do? What's going on? I know that then at 3.15, she has to go get Brooke from school, and how did that go? And how's the dichotomy with them today? And all these things, and just constantly trying to be aware of what's going on in her life, and treating those things like they matter, because they do. They matter a lot. And then when I come home, and she does a great job at trying to make things nice, don't notice anything out loud if it's not an ideal day. I'm serious. But maybe more, you know, I come in and the first thing I do is I step on a toy. Oh, well. You know, that's, we want to cultivate a gracious attitude. And also, I think the last thing I'll say is remembering, because there was a question earlier about, You know, division of labor in the home and all this kind of stuff. I might go a little far on this, but I ultimately believe at the end of the day, whatever happens in our family, I'm responsible for it. And so there was an instance not long ago where, you know, we had an issue with health insurance. And what do we need? And what plan do we need? I don't know. When people start talking about medical stuff that my kids need, it sounds like the grown-ups in Charlie Brown. Like, I don't process it. And so I asked Bethany to handle it. And for various number of legitimate reasons, it didn't get done. And so it became my responsibility to get that done. So I reached out and got the help that we needed. And it turns out that the thing that she thought was right and wasn't quite willing to pull the trigger on was the right thing to do. And then we did it. But the point is making sure that your wife knows that you are invested even in the things that you agree that maybe are her primary responsibility because the buck stops with you. I certainly believe the importance of praying for your wife regularly. First Peter 3.7 says, husbands, live in communion with your wives according to knowledge. So I need to be keeping track of her. She needs to be in my heart. I need to know what's going on in her life. She doesn't need to be criticized by me. I don't criticize her. A lot of your wives are this way. My wife's an enormously godly person, is the truth, who is highly motivated. And the Holy Spirit is doing an enormous work in her life. She doesn't need criticism from me. And if there's something I don't like, it doesn't need to be said. She needs to be praised and encouraged and loved by me. But I think the biggest thing on my mind is making the priority to have a relationship with her. The truth is I work enormous hours. I bear enormous pressures. The number of things, the balls I'm juggling and the whole thing. And she knows that in her heart. I think she learned, she had to learn it, that I'm really doing it for the right reasons. But it is what it is. And I work, you know, this week we have a lot going on. Tonight we have the singles at our home. We have, I preach every Sunday. I stand and deliver. It's there. And there's all this stuff going on. And yesterday, Wednesday, I got a And I plan out my work week, and there's no slack in it. And then Mel texts me and says, don't forget, you're a member of the denominational administrative committee. You have meetings in Atlanta all day tomorrow starting at 7 AM. And I almost cried. I'm just like, you know, and that's just my life. OK, well, and Sharon, bless her heart. She's really my helpmate. And we have something Saturday. It's a play for a family we're friends with. And she goes, it's OK, I'll go alone. I said, no, I'm going with you. I'm going to go on that. I think of the chestnuts in the sand illustration or the rice illustration. If you pour the rice in the jar, the chestnuts don't fit. You put the chestnuts in first, the rice goes around it. That's been a helpful metaphor for me. She's like one of the chestnuts. It needs to fit. And my relationship with her, with all that, it's every week. And then I get a text. So-and-so's dying. Off to the hospital I go. Then I've got a wedding. And it's our heart's desire to bless. And it's a great privilege. But it is relentless. And that is not an excuse for me not to be a faithful husband. And so I think the biggest thing that I do is really proactively, not as it works out, because it will never work making it work that she's a priority for my attention and time. And she's very understanding. She knows the deal with me. She's my real partner. Honestly, someone said to me today, Pam did. You got the singles come over. And I said, we do? That's because Sharon's going to do 95% of the work. I mean, and it's really her heart. We're doing it because she had a heart for it. But for me to prioritize her and to take a walk with her and to spend time praying with her or talking with her or watching Masterpiece Theater. We're, as Ellie says, you and your period dramas. Oh, and we love them. You know, Wolf Hall is airing right now. Oh, we love it. And doing things together. But if I don't make it happen because I want to and because I'm committed to it, there's plenty that just never happen. So as a husband, really desiring for that to be the case and just making it happen. And I'll just add something real quick. Just with a keen desire to grow together in oneness, we are made one in Christ together. But entering into the heart and mind of your husband, understanding what's on his heart, what keeps him up at night, what is he thinking about. And it's interesting because for the earlies and for us, and probably Vanduud Awards as well too, we come to work with our husbands. And I don't say that in a critical sort of way, but it's a natural way for me to actually enter into his work. And so whatever that looks like in your situation, entering into your husband's work, entering into your husband's interests, I think we really bless our husbands that way when we show an interest in those things. Well, thank you. You all have been terrific. Let's give them a round of applause. I'm going to have Rick pray in a minute. Please feel free to eat a few more, stay for a little bit if you'd like to. The cards are in the back. We are so glad that you came. Rick, can you pray? This is the last one of the year. This is it. Yeah, we're all done. Father, we now pray for these dear women. Oh, Lord, thank you for the young ladies and the not so young ladies as they are in this room. But Lord, I do pray for particularly the young mothers. That's what this ministry is for, and strengthen them, encourage them. They've got all kinds of things going on. They've got godly desires. They've got their own troubles. They've got things they've come out of and things they're going into, and they need your grace, Lord. But Lord, I'm so thankful. I'm so encouraged for this ministry because I know the benefit of it. And so would you cause these ladies to really benefit from On the one hand, just knowing that other women really care and having relationships, and then the things they've learned, Lord, that they'd be able to put them into practice. Maybe things that we said today would give perspective. And so I want to close, Lord, by praying for these young mothers. Oh, bless them. Thank you for the indispensable role they're playing in the lives of their families and children and in your church. And would you bless and help them? In Jesus' name, amen.