Our gracious Heavenly Father, again, we thank you for the privilege and the enjoyment that we have of gathering together with the saints. And Father, especially around the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and around this word that you have given us. Father, with a desire among us to know and understand these things, Father, and to rightly divide the word of truth. So that we please you and so that we're not Operating in our minds according to that which is not true so father we ask that you would take the things of your word and make them real to us and move us to greater study and Searching out of the scriptures we ask in Jesus name. Amen I thought maybe we'd start with a quick, just a quick review of the overall, the two five point list. And I've been challenged, you know, having for so many years come at it from the, and learned it from the tulip side, from the Calvin side, and there is no really nice acrostic for the other side. So it makes it kind of hard, and I find myself Okay, their number one point corresponds to the Calvinists, so that starts with T, total depravity. Oh yeah, free will. But to come down the other side, let's just do that quickly. First of all, on the Armenian side, they believed in free will, and by that they meant that even though both sides would admit something about a free will, they said, with that will, you are able to put your faith in Jesus Christ. Of course, on the other side, total depravity, the depravity that we have, and that does not mean that we're as bad as we could be, but that our will is locked into slavery to sin, slavery to Satan, and therefore, we can't break free of that in and of ourselves. Okay. The next one is conditional election, which is to say that, yes, God elects, but He elects on the condition that He has seen my faith, as He looks down through history, and He sees that I would take that free will that I have, and I would turn to Him And so then he on the basis knowing all things in the future is able to say I will elect that person because he will choose me. I think that's a fair assessment of that position. Okay. Conditional election. Then universal atonement or unlimited atonement. There's several ways that that's stated. Unlimited atonement or universal atonement. in other words Christ died for everyone and Therefore all they have to do is believe With that free will that they have and They will be saved Okay, the Calvinists would say but there was no one definitely saved by that death of Christ on the cross in the absolute sense. Okay. The fourth one, still, you can see how these, and a while back I said, you know, really, there's an awful lot to do with this first point in all of this. So, following through on the free will, we have obstructible grace, which is that God's grace is not able to break through my unwillingness if I am unwilling. If I take my free will, and free will is a two-edged sword, because with it I can choose to do what's right or I can choose to do what's wrong, and if I do choose to do what's wrong, obstructible grace says I can obstruct God's dealing with me. So that takes away a lot of confidence. I have great confidence in my Lord's ability to break through and get the job done no matter what He has to do to do it. Then the final one, still consistent with that I have a free will, since it was my free will that got me into this salvation in the first place, it is also my... I can choose now with that same will to reject the Lord and to fall from grace. And so I can lose... I can have salvation and lose salvation. I can have it, lose it, have it, lose it, depending on where my will is. Okay. And oftentimes that, in actuality, degenerates into Well, this is the sin I committed. I must have lost my salvation. I almost never hear somebody saying, well, I don't believe in Christ anymore. But you hear people saying, but I sinned this sin, and so now I must not be saved. And that seems to me to be a stretch away from falling from grace. The question being, Since I got into this salvation by trusting in Christ, it would seem like the only way you can get out is to not trust in Christ. Instead, it comes down to, well, I sinned. And because I sinned, I must have lost my salvation. But the question that seems never to be able to be answered is, what sins cause you to lose your salvation and which ones do not? There's nowhere to go with that. If you lie, do you lose your salvation? And I think most people say, well, if you murder, you do. You know, if you commit adultery, you probably do, or maybe you do, or, you know. But there's nothing in scripture that would say that. Okay. All right. Now, you know, I got thinking after I did this thing with the verses. How are you going to do this? And so, what I think I'll do is I'm going to run through the list of verses that I jotted down. We'll go to them quickly, read them, maybe make a couple comments. I'll ask how many had those verses. And you can keep ticking off whatever verses you have, you know, tick them off, and then we'll see what we have in the end. I may ask how many had that one, and we'll get an idea of how many had that verse. But then we'll end up with who had verses that we haven't mentioned at all. Okay. All right. John 3, 16 through 18. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him." Interesting to take that 17th verse and think about it. but that the world should be saved through him. And then the question is, was God rendered unable to do that? Did he have this plan that he would send Christ into the world to save the world? And then, of course, where's the Calvinist going to go? Calvus is going to say the world here is a technical use of the word cosmos, and it only refers to those who will ultimately be saved, in other words, the elect. And the way I read it one time is this guy said, here's what you got to do. Lift your mind up to the horizon in that future day when all those who will be saved are saved. And that group that you see that's saved is the world. You see what he's saying? God had a plan to save the world. No matter how you come at this, you're in trouble. You understand that? It's not. It's like I said, I think it was last week, J. Vernon McGee said, I never preached a sermon on John 3.16. It's one of the hardest verses in the Bible. And yet it's the most popular, you know, it's so well known. It's, you know, it's the one you see behind the basketball player at the, you know, on the banner, John 316. My friend, he says, to most people nowadays, that means, John, come to row three, seat 16. But in my dad's day, most people knew, I believe, what John 3.16 was. There are many places in the South where you're going along the road. Even in Oregon, there's some places where you can go along the road and see that verse, you know, along the road. Okay. All right. So, we've got, for God so loved the world, and you realize you could just spend so much time on this. If He loved the world, There's an awful lot of that world. If we take the other perspective of what the world is and we say, well, the world is the world. Satan, the ruler of this world, is coming. Then we look around and we say vast numbers of people are not being saved and so God's love for them. How's that work? You can see there's lots to think about and stay awake at night about. Okay. Then that great word, whoever. That seems to triumphs free will okay all right Titus chapter 2 verse 11 for the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men that's huge what is all men or is it bringing the salvation to potentially to all men I think that's where the where the Well, both sides could come down on that side. Yeah, it's an offer. And it's like we said, it's a genuine offer. We may not understand how. And certainly, I don't believe you're ever going to really wrap your mind around this and have it all locked in. And if you do, it will be for a short time until you find that next verse. And it's interesting to me how whatever side of this I'm looking at, I'm being caused to rethink what I thought. Do you know what I mean? You say, well, I don't know how to do that with this. Okay. Titus 2.11, for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. And then what does it say? Instructing us, those who are saved, 2. Deny ungodliness and worldly desires, and to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. Notice. The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, but what? Instructing us. Those who are believers. You see this. Okay. 1 John chapter 2. By the way, anybody have that one? Anybody have any of these so far? Okay. John 3.16. Everybody doing that one? Okay. Tight it. Alright. Your translation puts the emphasis a little different than the translation on this one. What is that? This one is the... NIV? And it says, for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Oh, okay. It's appeared to all men, but salvation has been given to all men. Yeah, let me see. To all men salvation has been given. Every man knows in his own mind there was a Creator. Alright, good. Okay, we're doing Titus 3, 4-6. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared. There's been books written about this. What is that love? For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son." I keep coming back to, however you define it, that love is wrapped up in Jesus Christ. And the benefits of that love fall on those who are in Christ, but don't fall on those who are not. Now some do let you breathe and use His water and His food and have children and so forth, but that's for such a brief period of time. Okay. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us. Not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior. So you see, His love for mankind. Okay, and Arminian, I believe, would say, if he loved mankind, doesn't it make sense that mankind could respond to that love? You see the argument? If only one-tenth of the people on earth can be saved, then how does the love of God extend to those that couldn't? And it says mankind. Now again, these are hard things. I keep coming back over the years to, in my estimation, my little tiny mind, there's a difference between can't and can't because he won't. There are people who absolutely could make a decision to do something, but never would because they won't do it. You know what I'm talking about? I mean, there were times, Jonathan's not here. I used to plague him, trying to get him to miss school. Because he wouldn't miss school, he was just a fanatic about it. He'd go sick, he'd go, no matter what, he just wouldn't miss. So I'd say, let's go trap a falcon. He'd say, yeah, great. And then I'd say, what if we go over there on Tuesday? Oh, I can't. I can't miss school. Oh, come on. You're doing fine. Just come on. I said, more fun. Because I knew. He could do that, but he would not. It's absolutely secure in the fact that he wouldn't do it. It was a genuine offer. I would have taken him over there, no kidding. I'd have taken him out of school and taken him over there, you know, but he would not do it. I was thinking of the, you know, the Andes survivors. Remember that story that, you know, the soccer team and so forth, other people on the plane, plane crashes, and it's not long before they're starving to death, and they start eating the corpses of the people who are there, and there was this little lady there. And I was, you know, I don't know where to go with it. But I always thought, isn't it interesting, she said, I will not. She could see these other people getting stronger by the day. you know, and able to have energy and do things because they were eating. You know, it was like a refrigerator because they were up there in the snow and she said, I will not. And she got sicker, you know, weaker, weaker, weaker and died. And I say, did she have the free will to do it? Yeah. But what stopped her? She wouldn't do it. You know, and that's one of the things that I see in the scriptures. I don't know that we can say it's impossible for them to do it. The reason it's impossible is because they won't do it. Now that's, I know that's complicated enough to start thinking about. But the problem is they won't. It was like the children of Israel when they got to the promised land and they went in and they were told to go in. And only Joshua and Caleb said, we can do it. And he loved them all. but all of that generation, save them, died. Yeah, similar, and we see it all through scripture, you know, that that will can be so fiercely set against what it could do, but won't. Isn't that our Arminian viewpoint though? Yeah. But the other thing was, God loved them all and offered that to them all. Yeah, and of course the problem with that though is when you start to think about it, Here's God knows the end from the beginning. I want to be so careful here, but you look and you say, but that love's not going to go anywhere. I mean, it's offered and it's genuine and it's real, but the desire of the person who loves someone is to bring blessing on the object of that love, is it not? See what I'm saying? So what about the blessings here in time? They don't count for his love? MacArthur wrote a book about that, John MacArthur, and he said, yeah, they do. And I agree with that. But how much do they count in eternity? We're really discussing this. Do you know what I mean? They're temporal. The question, what good is God's love in hell? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Huge things. You can see why people would rather not talk about them, including pastors. Okay, first, so we did the Titus, right? Yep. Now, 1 John 2, 1 and 2. My little children, I'm writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate, and that's a defense attorney, with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And it says this, and he himself, Jesus Christ, our defense attorney with the Father, seated at his right hand, and he himself is the propitiation or the satisfaction, satisfying a holy God, for our sins. And then this, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. Calvinist is going to say what? Well, the world is just those that are elect. And when you hold that position, then you end up with a limited atonement. And the Arminian is going to say, it means, just read it, what it says. That Christ died for the whole world and then both sides I mean and and I've heard this so often and I have to go there It's the only place I can flee to that his that his death on the cross Was efficacious for the elect it actually brings them to salvation But sufficient for all it was sufficient to save in other words. No one I keep coming back. There's another little piece that I flee to a little island that no one is going to be able to stand in heaven before God and say, I'm not in heaven, but it's a great waste of judgment, and say, you're the reason I wasn't saved. You know, that's a huge thing. Yes, there has to be provision. It's a genuine offer. Whether we understand how or not, okay, And it's that person, you know, it's like I said before, people, you know, either chuckle or get exasperated. But as I look at it, those who didn't get their will are the ones who God changed our will to put faith in Him, whereas everybody else, you go to someone and say, you know, you're lost. Have you ever seen anything like that and had any kind of a reaction at all? You know what I mean? It's like, I'm where I am. I'm comfortable where I am. Don't bother me with your nonsense. In other words, I don't want to be where you are. I don't want this Jesus Christ as my savior. Leave me alone. And that's what their will is asking for. Acts 1730. This is Paul's address to the Athenians, the people of Athens, when he was at Corinth. And he gives this great sermon to them. He says in verse 30, Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, which would be the history leading up to the coming of Christ, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere, how's that for a couple words, that all everywhere should repent because he has fixed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom he has appointed having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead. But notice what he says, that all everywhere should repent. Okay. In other words, that, from an Arminian standpoint, is, well then, if he's telling you to do it, you ought to be able to do it. Everyone's elected. Okay, or has the potential of being elected, because it's a conditional election. Okay, but anybody could be, because God said, all of you, everywhere, and that's pretty comprehensive yeah the provision is there sufficient for all but because of sin and the Calvinist is going to constantly be going back to that first point the total depravity of man and he's going to say something like this you have forgotten about the sinfulness of sin you live in in such a world of sin and even your own frame of reference of sin you're so colored by that that you don't understand the terrible condition that you're in and that you are locked in and a slave Jesus Christ said whoever commits sin is a slave of sin okay that they may escape from the snare of the devil having been held captive to do his will Then John 12, 32, here's the Lord Jesus Christ speaking, and he says, and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, certainly referenced to the cross, will draw all men to myself. John 12, 32, and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw And by the way, that's that word, if I remember right, the Greek is alko, and it's the word that when Peter and John caught so many fish that the nets were breaking, and they drew or dragged the net to shore, that's that word, will draw all men to myself. Calvus would say, has to be the elect. Well, you see the problem. Okay, we'll draw all into the judgment. Then that would be consistent with speaking to Mary. This one shall be for the fall and the rise of many. And this would be emphasizing drawing all men to myself by way of the judgment. Yeah, that he's been given the power of resurrection to bring about the judgment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Salvation and everything. Men have been drawn to him. We have A.D. and B.C. I mean, the calendar is set up on his death. Yeah, and everyone and and and then we have the fact that he is the one who created all things and Everyone knows there's a God By that creation, you know enlightens every man coming into the world remember John chapter 1 That's concerning the word that he and it's a big That's bothered me for years. When did he do it? How did God in Jesus Christ enlighten everyone coming into the world? And I believe it's that Romans 1 emphasis that everyone, by his creative work, knows there is a God. Then the question is, what do you do with that God that you now know? It says they didn't give thanks. They weren't thankful. They didn't honor him as God, but they came vain in their speculations. They said, you know, we're going to do something else. We're going to come up with another God, another history, and another, you know, all kinds of other speculative things. Professing to be wise, they became fools. It has changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the image of, you know, animals and so forth. Okay. All right. Do anything with that? Well, I'll do it myself. How do you take that? I really don't know. I really can't. I like the judgment one. I mean, that's certainly part of it. I just, I don't know how to do it. Unless you just drop back to, you know, that's one of the things that is so appealing about the Calvinistic side of it. It's all a little neat and it all fits in its box. because everything you have a problem with, oh, that's the elect. And if, you know, if you're going to say the world is the elect, you know, pretty soon you're doing it about everything. Do you know what I mean? And so all men here are those that are going to be drawn to him through his saving work and be saved. His saving grace would be available to the Greeks, like those present, as well as the Jews, he said, to all men. Oh, all men, that it spreads out into the, yeah, hmm, interesting. Romans 5.18, this is a verse that's, So then, as through one transgression, and of course, in the context, that's Adam's disobedience. So then, as through one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all men, which is absolutely true. We all became sinners in Adam. We all became, okay, death spread to all men. Even so, through one act of righteousness, there resulted justification of life to all men. The last three sets of verses, the preterists could argue. Is it right that a preterist would say that all men are saved? You have to be careful. There's a group of the preterists who hold that all men are going to be saved. Not all preterists believe that, but some preterists that came out of a certain school of thought believe that, yes, what this says, this is like a friend of mine who believes this. He would say, listen, all men were condemned in Adam. All men are going to be saved in Christ. This is a Marine Corps buddy of mine. Came up to me after I You know, he knew I had a hard time doing the memorial for our guys that had died. And he said, wait, they're saved. And, you know, we get into some discussions. And basically he says, you say you're a literalist. He says, what does that verse literally say? It says, all men are going to be saved. And then I come back and I said, but wait a minute. All those in Adam were condemned. And now I look, because Adam was the head of the race, Christ is the head of a new race, and it's all those in Christ that are saved. That's my understanding of this. Just like he was the head of the fallen race, Christ is the head of the new creatures in Christ, we could say race, and all of them are saved. That's the distinction that I make. That's true, that's true, but see that you know it gets complicated But they they would say very definitely there were there were people that are lost and condemned I Can't remember exactly where they cut off. I think maybe it's 70 ad and so Paul's severe warnings and Christ severe warnings to those who would not be saved and would go to the lake of fire and are all those prior to that time. Then, vessels of mercy extend to everyone past that. You say, how? Well, which would mean... Which would mean God determined when you were born and you were born prior to 70 AD. That's right. Born lost. That's true. That's true. Except for those that were saved at that time. Maybe because there was people at that time that had actually seen Oh, seeing Christ, yeah, and we're so rejecting Him having seen Him. Yeah, that's where they would go with this. But then, you know, it's like I say to my friend, so everything we're doing is wrong? Do you know what I mean? I mean, what's the thrust of the body of believers down through the church age? It's to get that Gospel out, and all of a sudden it didn't have to be done. you know, if you hold that position. If everybody's saved, then, you know, it just doesn't wash with the rest of Scripture. Nor does it, at all, you can't even approach this thinking if you have a dispensational viewpoint of eschatology. Because then you have the book of Revelation and the wrath of God coming on this Christ-rejecting Earth, You know, and to look around and say, everybody's saved today and it's just beyond me. You know, and they would say, some of these things fit really well. And I say, they fit because you change the rules of interpreting scripture and you can make it say anything. You know, if you change those rules and you let, you just take certain hypothetical positions and you say, from now on I'm believing this is true. When you don't really have a reason to do that. then everything that comes out of that, sure, it gets easy after that. If after 70 AD everybody's saved, then you just fit it to that, you know. But I was trying to say, you know, it's like playing some sport. And all of a sudden you say, by the way, anything you want to do is fine. You can shoot from the bleachers, you can, you know, you can, anything, you can have any number of people on the floor, you can, and all of a sudden, you know, it's chaos. Because you changed all the rules. You took the, you know, to me, you took the banks of the river away, and the water's going everywhere. You know, we do that. Okay, that's what they would say. That's what we're talking about. They're saying everybody, you know, prior to 70 AD that wasn't elect is vessels of mercy. Vessels of wrath are all those, okay, because what does Paul say? Even us, they say Paul says it was him, okay, 1st Corinthians 9.22, you know, as you read this verse, 1st Corinthians 9.22, I think this is an Arminian argument verse. Paul says, to the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. No, I don't think so. Because he said, and most of these verses you could argue from either side. There's no doubt about that. That's why this argument continues. But if Paul says, to the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak, then I can back away and I can say, well, it seems to me that this then is more of an Arminian emphasis that there's something depending on me for this person's salvation. You know? If I'm not weak, then maybe I'll offend them and... You see what I'm saying? So it becomes more in the Armenian camp. We've got to do whatever we can do to bring these people in that I may by all means save some. Whereas the Calvinists could back away and say, hey Paul, aren't these people going to be saved whether you're weak or not? If they're elect, they are. 1 Corinthians 10.33, same emphasis. 1 Corinthians 10, we'll start in 32, but it's verse 33. Paul says, give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the Church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many that they may be saved. Again, emphasis on Paul. I understand you can come at it from the Calvinistic side and say, just like our brother Dave Baker would say, I am out looking for those who are God's chosen to bring them the faith in Christ. And I will do whatever I can do to bring that about. Is that the basis of the speaker movement? Certainly the seeker movement is strongly Arminian and so because of this listen if you have a free will and everyone has a free will where any person that you come to could put their faith in Christ and it then comes down to can I as another person and Convince you to use your free will to trust in Christ Okay, and so that has been so refined and and What I say it's come to this point in our time where we remove things in the church that might offend somebody because Now already, if you come in there and you're offended by the cross for some reason, we don't have a cross. And we don't do this, and we don't do that, and there's all these things that we don't do anymore because we're trying to get as many people to come in there so that we could convince them and we'll use music and we'll use everything we can to bring them in. We'll talk to them about economics and how they can do their finances better and we'll talk about all of these things in an attempt to ultimately bring their will to faith in Christ. So we do that with God's Word too. We take out what offends us. Absolutely. The flesh very much doesn't want to deal with us. And sovereignty has nothing to say in this whole thing. Well, I think that's accurate. Well, there certainly isn't a whole lot of emphasis on it. No. These two camps are, for the most part, worlds apart. One has an army to defend and protect and advance the cause of free will. The other has an army to defend and to protect and to advance God's sovereignty. And that's what it is. And there are many, many people, many, you know, who would say there's something to be said for both sides. You can't just totally abandon free will. Because if you do, then you understand that you have God creating people who never could be saved in any way, shape, or form, okay, and there's people, you know, there, you know, and I love this guy, John Bunyan, who wrote Pilgrim's Progress, but he also wrote a book, Reprobation Asserted. Do you know what reprobation is? That's what many people would say the other side of the coin of election. that while there are, that you can't separate, now I'm not sure I agree with this, but you can't separate God's electing and God's purposely damning others. And John Bunyan, who's, I mean, certainly God has used him. He wrote a whole book, I have it. He wrote a whole book. Reprobation asserted and there have been many Calvinists down through history say yes, that's what God has done. He's sovereign and he can Create for his own purpose in his own glory those that are going to be lost and those that are going to be saved the human heart certainly recoils You know against that and I think the human heart always starts off, until it's modified by Scripture, or renewed by Scripture, always starts off over on the Arminian side. What person, the day they're saved, said, God elected me to this salvation, broke me out, you know, it doesn't happen. I put my faith in Christ last night, and I, and I, and I sought Him, and, you know, And they start to see a different emphasis in Scripture, at least another emphasis in Scripture that you have to deal with. Okay. Let me read you the rest of my verses. 1 Thessalonians 3.12 1 Timothy 2.1-4 1 Timothy 4.10 2 Timothy 2.10 James 1.5, 1 Peter 2.17, 1 Peter 3.15. Okay, and I'll stop there. Okay, who's got something that isn't on that list? 2 Corinthians 5.14.15, Hebrews 2.9-11, Isaiah 5.3-6. Okay. That are these all verses toward our menu side? Yes. And then we have a bunch for the other side too. And I have just a general question of why is it so vague? I mean there's so many for one and there's so many for the other. You know that's a great question because it's a question that covers the whole sweep of scripture that either I'm totally missing something. or God could have made these things clearer. So then you come down to, well, if he didn't, why didn't he? And one answer to that is, this is so complex, you can't make it that clear to our little minds. In other words, you ever hear somebody that's, you know, some physicist or whatever, and he starts talking, you know, it's not registering at all on you. And it may be that. Okay, I had a great conversation again with Dave, about Dave Baker about this. And we were asking this question, why is it? Why are there some passages in scripture that sound like you could lose your salvation? And why are there even more that say there's no way you can lose your salvation? And he said, I think it's designed by God to constantly force us back into his word. To study, to search, because we're constantly coming up against other people who say, have you ever seen this verse? And sometimes you haven't, you know, or you haven't seen it in a way that struck you that way. And so now all of a sudden you're backed into a corner and you say, I don't know what to do with that, you know? And so then you have to go back into scripture and this is your whole life. That you're, you're constantly studying and being pushed, and you're challenged, you know, and sometimes intimidated by some new passage of scripture that you have never really dealt with before. Or some new thought that a believer just comes to you and says, what do you think about this? And you say, well, I don't, whoa. You know? And part of growth is continually being forced back to think about these things. And the more we do, the more we go to the Word, and the more we go to the Lord, and the more we, you know, it's a good thing. And the better fellowship we have. I love this. You know what I mean? I mean, what a sad thing if we're all in a group. Oh, we can't talk about that. You say, well, it's in Scripture. Well, yeah, but we're just not going to go there. I've heard this. You know, people will be upset, and they'll be divisive, and we're just not going to talk about that. So all of a sudden, you've got all your go-to places, but everything above that, which is a whole bunch of Scripture, is off-limits. You can't talk about these things. I say, we better be ready to talk about anything that is in Scripture. We can't have these areas, our little pet areas, that we're just protecting. We have to be able to say, listen, bring me the verse, and to the best of my ability, before the Lord, I'll look at it. It doesn't mean I'm going to agree with you or you're going to agree with me, but I keep coming back, let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. In other words, grapple with these things. Come to a position on them. And I love it. I've had people that I absolutely disagree with. Do you know what I mean? Just vigorously. But they can sit down with me and they can say, here's why I hold this position. And they can take me to this passage and this passage and this passage and this passage. And at the end, I can say, I don't agree with you, but I can see why you hold this the way you do. And I admire that. I'd much rather have that than say somebody says, all I agree with you, Linton. Yeah, and they don't even know, you know, it's like one time somebody said to me, well, tell me about this. I think it was about Calvinism and Arminianism. Tell me about Calvinism and Arminianism. And so I'm going through all this and they said, I think I'll be an Arminian. You know, and that, I thought, this isn't like, the lottery. This is a study of God's Word to arrive at what you believe Scripture says. It's not, well, I'd rather be this than that. Lots of times you end up being something you'd rather not. Do you know what I mean? You end up with a position that's not popular. It may be against the flow of the tide in the day that you live in, but you can't get away from it because you absolutely are convinced that this is where scripture takes you. Also, put us into the position of looking at our own salvation and saying, Oh, I think that's true. Yeah, I have two thoughts about that. I hate to put the saved person in consternation over his salvation. But having said that, I would rather do that if in the process someone who wasn't saved looked at their salvation and said, you know, I never really have trusted in Christ. There's no fruit in my life whatsoever. I've never seen a speck of fruit. Maybe I'm holding to something here that isn't valid. And I think that's very, very true. You had a couple, did you? Yeah. Romans 4, 4 and 5. Luke 14, 23. Anybody else that had some verses? I keep landing at John 6, 37 all the way down. Oh, yes, yes. 37 to 40. Yeah. And even later in the chapter. Yeah, that's a great, that's a powerful, powerful Calvinist passage. Although it does have Armenian Whoever comes to me, I will in no wise cast out. Okay, anybody else got a verse that we didn't cover or mention? Oh, yes. Lydia? Oh, yeah. Powerful. Strongly on the Calvinistic side. Although, what would it, okay, let's just do it for the fun of it. What would Arminian do to it? Don't think about it. What would he do? He'd say, yeah, I'm appointed to salvation because God elected me because I chose him. He's not going to have trouble with that. You see that reasoning? And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Okay. Arminian? conditional election God elected me really he elected me because he saw I would believe in him that makes me appointed for eternal life so that would fall under the conditional election yeah but that would also be Calvinist oh yeah and that's what that was where I would go with it but I'm just saying you always have to you know if you're going to be You know, in the wrestling and the fighting, you always have the counters and the... You know, if he throws this at me, this is what I'm going to do. We have to be able to... You have to understand that people who are studied in these positions are not going to be jerks. Do you know what I mean by that? They're going to come with their verses and they're going to have some good verses. Okay? And so it's helpful, once you know both sides of this issue, it's helpful to think through the passages that you hold to be strongly Calvinistic and say to yourself, okay, now I'm an Arminian and how am I going to view this from the five points? How can I see this? And that helps you then when you start to talk to these people, you know what they're going to say next. You know this guy's going to say, well, I believe in election too, you know. I can remember one person saying, you know, both sides believe in election. They just disagree about how it happens. But doesn't there, I mean, well, doesn't the Armenian conditional election require that there's something good in it? Well, you see, now you're punching below the belt to an Armenian. That absolutely would be the Calvinistic argument. If there's none who does good, know not one. There's none who understands. There's none who seeks after God. If all of those things are true, and they are, Then from my position, from the Calvinistic position, as God looks down to the future, all he sees is a mess. He sees a willful, unwilling, sinful, rebel enemy. But see, that comes back to that first point. Total depravity? Not so much depravity that free will has been so damaged that it can never operate the way it should. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's those arguments that made me have to go on the other side. Because I realized that, and I've said this often, but you know that statement that is a Calvinistic statement, there but for the grace of God go I. I can remember being a young kid and hearing that and thinking, not me. Because I didn't, I wouldn't do that. I'm saved and I put my faith in Christ. And then start looking at scripture. What does scripture say about you, Linton? All of a sudden you come to this realization, that is me. That is absolutely me apart from the grace of God. What arrogance. Born into a Christian home, taught these things as soon as I could hear. You know, everything, God working his work. And I have the arrogance to say, oh, it's not me. Just horrible. Horrible. And I think one of the great questions as you view this, and we talked about this, is this question. Which side glorifies man? And which side glorifies God? That's a huge, huge issue. since we're here to glorify God. It's so easy to see that... Do you ever hear a testimony where it's just really bragging? You know what I mean? And then sometimes that's the kind of testimony that people are looking for, you know, that it will be exciting to hear and so forth. It's really all about the person, whereas Calvinism recognizes this is God doing His work and bringing it about to his own glory and to our wonderful, wonderful, gracious treatment throughout all eternity. All right. Father, we thank you for the privilege of discussing these things and looking at your word. And Father, we ask, as we said earlier, that we would be constantly turned back into the scriptures and have a desire to know the truth so that the truth will set us free. And Father, to please you with our usage of your word, rightly dividing it, Father, we ask in Jesus' name, Amen.