Kev wrote: I wonder when did you correct BMC for her rediculous comments to me? She compared me to Satan, she called me a liar. She hinted that I was an antinomians, when I hold just about the same view about the law as you do. You said that you believe that AM is wrong in his thinking in another post but did you ever try to tell him the correct way? You canâ€™t tell me you really donâ€™t see the hypocrisy in some who say to be caring to those who have different views on the Bible Yet are some of the least tolerant themselves. â€” John UK why donâ€™t you just give it a little break for awhile to rest and pray? That would be most God honoring. Think also on my comment to UPS a lot of it could be asked if you as well.
Sorry Kev, I usually try to stay out of disputes among brethren who post here. Sister B will readily acknowledge we don't see many things eye to eye. There were plenty of people showing AM the truth, I did not see the need to add to it. Forgive me for any wrong I have done to you or others. I will try to be more consistent in my posts here.
DD wrote: U S Loving a brother or sister IN CHRIST is as automatic to me as breathing. You, who have proven yourself to be anything other than a brother/sister IN CHRIST try to lay some sort of guilt trip on me because I refuse to succumb to the lies you put forth as truth and require that "I love you as a brother" which ain't gonna happen until you bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, stop teaching lies as truth, and stop calling the Lord Jesus a liar. I hope you come to your senses soon. As for BMac, her "wisdom", her "love", her "theology" is all of the world/wicked one and as your mentor will make you twofold more a child of hell than herself.
Here is your problem DD. The only thing in my post were truths backed up by Scripture. Anybody reading it can see that. The only thing in your reply was your inaccurate assessment and your opinion to which you are entitled.
DD, I admonish you as a brother in Christ. (not addressing the John UK matter)
The Bible clearly states 1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
You have an issue that you love your Calvinism (not speaking against it) more than you love your God and His children. (per above verse)
You will have to cut passages out of your Bible like the story of the rich young ruler where it said that the Lord loved (Mark 10:21) one that rejected the truth. You will need to eliminate passages where our Lord says He had compassion on the multitudes (Matt. 14:14; Mark 6:34,8:2) because compassion doesn't spring from anger (see Jonah 4) but from love. You will need to eliminate one of the sayings of our Lord on the cross when He told the Father to forgive the heathen who were putting Him to death because forgiveness proceeds from love not anger. (see Jer. 18:23)
Don't forget the apostle Paul wish himself accursed for the children of Israel (chapter 10 of Romans) whom he later acknowledged were not elect (chapter 11) that is a great love.
There is wisdom in what BMac stated in her 11/20/17 3:13 AM post, you would do well to ponder it.
Although I do not a believe in a so called "free will gospel" as DD falsely claimed, I do believe the gospel is given freely to all men and that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom. 10:13)
DD may claim he speaks for a love of truth but he speaks more out a detestation of those who don't see what he deems as correct Biblical interpretation.
I have served with many who would tell you, incorrectly, that man has a free will to "accept" Jesus as their Savior. Ironically, it is really not their testimony, they acknowledge that God had to reach down to them when they were incapable of reaching up to Him and save them and give God alone the glory for their salvation. They are people completely misrepresented by DD, they love God, they preach the Word to the lost, not the method.
DD, they certainly don't share your disdain for their brothers in Christ(I John 4:7-20, particularly verse 20 but context is important)
It is quite ironic that as one who "finds fault at every level" that you would project your thinking onto others.
I will not respond to the rant to follow, but just pray that God would give DD grace to not only learn to speak the truth, but speak it in love (Eph. 4:15)
Just to be clear,I am NOT endorsing BG or his methods
ladybug wrote: Oh dear, now DD has been wrongly accused of being rude, arrogant, etc. .
Wrongfully accussed sister ladybug???
DD called those who don't see doctrine his/her way blamphemers. there was no concern that a brother/sister was a person who had been taught inaccurately or had not grown in their understanding. You have said that God opened your eyes to the truth, do you think it would be kind to call you an egotistical blasphemer, who lacks knowledge? What happened to I Corinthians 4:7?? If DD knows truth should it not be manifest in humility instead of smug pride that says they have no patience for others? Do you not see arrogance in the statement, have you had your blinders removed and calling another Michael rude when he has not been. I won't answer you until you answer me is childish at best.
No, my statement stands per the attitude that DD has displayed in the posts in this thread, if you don't see it, so be it.
Another Michael, do as you wish, but in this thread some of the most rude, arrogant, malicious, and condescending comments have come from DD. They have no wish for edifying dialogue and need to realize their comments are far from exalting God. If I were you I would ignore them, no doubt they worship at the altar of the WCF
Got to remember, we are not God! We do NOT know whom the elect are. Once we have told a sinner he is lost and under the condemnation of God for his sin, then we let them know that a loving God in mercy has provided a way to flee the wrath to come.
The biggest demonstration of Godâ€™s righteous angry and wrath on sin is the same place as His greatest demonstration of His love!! The cross of Christ
Paul gave two motives for preaching the gospel. Knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men and the love of Christ constrains me. I would venture that after tell people of their condemnation (Romans 1-3), he would also personally tell them of His love (Romans 5)
We were at one time objects of His wrath but God be praised became recepients of His undeserving mercy and love. Hallelujah
Kev, thanks for your patience and kind wishes. I hope you don't mind the discussion of the other verses in a later post. I would like to deal with the meaning of Hebrews 4 and your presupposition.
First of all, "although" is not your friend in this passage. It means to bring in a contrast to what is being talked about. To introduce a different thought.
The sun was shining bright, although it was still kind of cold outside. Although I hate country music, I thought you have a good singing voice.
Even your example was a contrast between stopping the work and getting it done. So instead connecting the two thoughts it contrast them. Which again points to the context, which you are not acknowledging, that it is speaking of God's creation work and subsequent rest.
Your presupposition is that when God planned something it became an accomplished fact at that time it was planned.
I will destroy the earth with a flood, happened 120 years later
I will give you a son (seed) happened 25 years later
I will make you king instead of Saul, happened 15 years later.
I will deliver you out of the land of affliction, happened 400 years later (Genesis 15:13)
A virgin will conceive, it happened 700 years later
I am not sure we are going to go any place in this discussion brother, but I will try to respond later, the good Lord willing. Currently a tad under the weather, so calling it a night if you will bear with me. Thanks, for your response and understanding. God bless.
Idahomer, thank you for your kind and gracious response.
God is Sovereign. His Sovereignty does not mean that He dictates every event throughout all time. He knows what will happen because He is God, however He is not the source of every event. He set before the children of Israel life and good and death and evil and encouraged them to choose life. (Deut. 30)(please no discussion about free will am not advocating that) The choice they made was their own not something predetermined by God's sovereignty.
So, yes, God fashions in the womb His creation but the calling of Jeremiah to be a prophet before he was born was unique to Jeremiah and not something we can derive as a pattern for all of humanity. You see the problem, then the woman who becomes a prostitute must by this pattern, have her gifts and calling sovereignly determined by God.
ps Having been in your shoes, the reason your response looks as it does is because yo pasted your response before the last [QUOTE]of my response. God bless.
Thanks for your response, Kev. Verses, paragraphs, punctuation are very helpful but not divinely inspired.
You might do better in understanding verse 4 if you started it with the although of verse 3. The writer was clearly referring to the work of the foundation of the world in Genesis 1 and thus mentioned the rest found in Genesis 1. He even uses the same analogy in verse 10 and the same Greek word translated "works" appears in verse 3, 4 and 10.
One of the keys to correct understanding is that God is not bound or regulated by time but we are. He could speak of Cyrus his servant years before his birth. His ways are not ours, His viewpoint is not the same as ours (ie. 1,000 years is as a day) Cyrus, however, did not do the service God mentioned until a specific time.
Because God planned something does not mean He completed it at the time of the plan even if He viewed it as a fait accompli . from Galatians
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,To redeem ..
This happened at a specific time for a specific purpose according to the Word of God. Just like you were not saved until the specific time that you were born from Above even though God had said you shall come to Christ (John 6:37).
Kev wrote: In the below sentence what is the â€śrestâ€ť that is mentioned? Hebrews 4:3 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. You tell me what this rest that is mentioned in this verse and I will tell you how I see this verse.
I am not sure you will like my answer, but here is my reply and am hoping you will be true to what you said you would do when you received it.
Chapter divisions are as you know added. So, we have to back up to chapter 3 also
There are many rests mentioned.
The rest of the children of Israel from wandering.
The rest of salvation (mentioned here)
The rest we enjoy in Christ here on earth and later in heaven.
The rest of heaven itself
The rest of God from His creative works on the 7th day which is the key to understanding the last phrase of verse 3
Kev wrote: Hebrews 4King James Version (KJV) 4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Itâ€™s late for me posting meditate on the rest mentioned in Heb 4. My beliefs are not from one verse UPS. â€” Mike they are still Christians if you canâ€™t give spiritual meat to Christians how are you going to give it to the masses.
Kev, before I address your usage of Hebrews 4, I need you to be kind enough to elucidate what you are saying this passage means
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.Â
Kev wrote: Who were all those letters that you mentioned in your first part of your comment addressed to? Lost sinners or professing Christians UPS?
They were addressed to those who WERE lost sinners. Do we know if any of the Apostles specifically told a lost sinner of the love of God in a witnessing situation, I would say those Scriptures indicate they did. It is, however, pure speculation as to whether they did or did not, so the point is moot.
Act 2:39-41Â For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.Â And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.Â Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
The exhortation that mercy (an act of love on God's part) could be found was given to all present, only those in whom God worked effectually were numbered in those that gladly received His Word.
Point is, you don't know if the person to whom your giving the gospel is ordained unto eternal life(and therefore loved by God) or not, so you have no basis to NOT tell them that. It's truth (or not)to their heart is God's work
Idahomer wrote: He and He alone has determined our gender. His gifts,etc.
Sorry and your point is? Amos said he was no prophet but a herdsman and a picker of fruit whom God called to be a prophet.
Here is proof you cannot generalize God's work in one man applicable to all of humanity.
1Timothy 1:12-17 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I DID IT IGNORANTLY IN UNLBELIEF. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
God knew he would become an apostle (Gal. 1:15) are you saying He called him to be a blasphemer, a persecutor of the people He loved, the chiefest of sinners?
We are translated from darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son based upon the finished work of Christ. Remember God is not bound by time but we are. Hebrews 4 by the way is speaking of His work of creation. His redemptive work was not finished until He uttered those words at a specific time in history, It is finished. Our salvation may have planned in eternity past (in which by the way God dwells because He is not limited by time) but was not a reality in us until we were birthed from above. Until that time we were among those walking the broad road of destruction.
From Pilgrim's Progress
Thus far did I come laden with my sin; Nor could aught ease the grief that I was in Till I came hither: What a place is this! Must here be the beginning of my bliss? Must here the Burden fall from off my back? Must here the strings that bound it to me crack? Blest Cross! blest Sepulchre! blest rather be The Man that there was put to shame for me.
Don't base your entire view of Soteriology on a passage in Romans 11 (a passage that in context see chapter 10 is speaking of Israel)
Brother, I know you want to exalt God, don't diminish His love, remember it passes knowledge. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked.
Kev, read Romans 5:8, read Ephesians 2:4,5, read Titus 3:3-7, read I John 4:10 and then tell me there are no examples where the apostles told somebody that God loves them personally WHILE they were yet sinners.
You tell individuals they are separated from God because of their sin. You let them know those sins have eternal consequences. But you don't leave them in despair. You let them know there is hope, God in mercy and love made a way for them to not perish in their sins. If they repent, if they flee to Christ to save them from the wrath to come there is hope.
Whether God loves the impenitent lost has no relevance in the declaration of the gospel. There is a reason it is called good news. We DON'T KNOW if God will have mercy on those to whom the gospel is given, we know we didn't deserve it and yet it was extended. We don't know "if it may not be true", it pure presumption to assume it is not.
Did Peter not tell the whole crowd Repent? Did Paul not tell the jailer to believe? Did he not encourage the heathen at Lystra to turn from these vanities? Read Paul's testimony in Acts 26:17-20
Nothing in your response brother Kev negates the fact that God loved and loves sinful people. Particular redemption does not mean that we were saved from the time of or prior to our birth.
You need to consider what the Scriptures say
I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God v11 And such were some of you:
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: verse 3 ..and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (see verse 12)
John 3:18 and 36 tells us we were condemned and objects of the wrath of God
There is no Biblical basis for your belief that God viewed His elect the same way He described the children of Israel in Balaam's prophecy.
Look at the descriptions we were called
unrighteous, servants of sin, free from righteousness, children of disobedience, by nature children of wrath. condemned already, having the wrath of God abiding upon us, strangers, without God, without hope
What did our Lord say, He came not to call the righteous but sinners unto repentance,