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John UK wrote: .. I was effectively shunned, which was not very nice. And now you are doing the same thing (goodbye John) which seems to be the way of it in reformed circles. ...
You are funny John. A little melodramatic. I am not shunning you, I am saying goodbye. Thank you for the discussion, but this nominal, sub-normal, straight laced, questionable believer, who according to John UK, believes in a third covenant, has to be on his way to walk with The Lord and serve him in his calling. I'm rejoining the ranks of those who quietly read and ponder.
To all the saints who have interacted with me in any way, the Lord's richest blessings to you all, and an especial thank you to Dorcas, Lurker and Michael H for your warmth and kind words. Blessings to you and yours.
John UK wrote: .... but they spoke to me in the same sort of way that you speak to me, "Oh, that was then.....we're living in the day of small things..."
Yeah right, saying certain things were only for the early church during the transition from the old economy to the new is the great sin of the reformed movement. Funny that that constituency is also the one that has known the most God sent revivals, with real spiritual power converting people not tickling their imaginations with a supposed return to the way things were in Acts, with apostles, prophets, miracles, or even the Spirit whispering intelligible words inside ones head etc
If you learn to reignite your situation to return to how things were in the Acts, then by all means let us all know. In the meantime, I shall carry on seeking God for himself and the power of Holy Ghost to effect real conversions.
Michael Hranek wrote: ....you yourself have been in revival meeting where you ..experienced the presence of God in a powerful way ... and I think it is safe to say you would not call those experiences "Charismatic Mysticism"..
All my experiences of God's powerful presence centre around the Word of God. I've been in meetings where God's presence is so powerful that his word comes to life and every heart present is captivated by that word to such a degree that you could literally hear a pin drop. After the meeting there is no small talk, but every soul says how they have been deeply affected by the word and we have wonderful fellowship discussing the ramifications of what we've heard and how we may best help each other in our walks with The Lord. No one at anytime has ever mentioned hearing voices: this is heart converse only leading to definite change.
We don't have any showy stage shows, no miracle workers etc
As I explained occasionally I've had what I can only refer to as promotings or premonitions which are so deeply impressed on my heart that I feel compelled to do or say something, but I'm never sure whether these are of The Lord and I wouldn't feel confident to ascribe them to him for fear of lying.
John UK wrote: ....It was pastored by a most conservative and straight-laced brother called Paul Bassett... Until, that is, one day God spoke to him clearly and with purpose, and Bro Paul never had a Bible in his hand. He related the event subsequently in one of his books. He was driving about his business as pastor of the church, when suddenly, the Lord said, "Turn left, turn left!"....
For someone who professes Sola Scriptura John you sure lean heavily on anecdotes.
How did he know it was The Lord who spoke to him? How do you know?
Must be wonderful having a personal hotline to The Lord where he speaks verbally to you: you can just bypass the Bible having authoritative personal revelations. We poor sub-normal, nominal, straight laced Christians have to make do with a written word, struggling to understand parts of it, praying for the Lords help, struggling with holiness, assurance etc. Sure the explanation must be that we deserve our lot in life because you say we deny the supernatural. Seeking God for himself is not enough if we can't also have the miracles of the NT: like witnessing miracles ever saved anyone.
Anyway, I am also bowing out, because as Frank said this is going nowhere.
Elmer K. Yoder wrote: Any dictionary will tell you a person is a human being. A human being is commonly considered a man or woman, though the unscriptural term human being is worth investigation. A man or woman is body, soul, and spirit - or do you believe otherwise?... It is written: ...
I got back early so checking in. However, don't know that I will be continuing here for much longer. I'm obviously out of step with the majority thinking here, which seems to lean more towards charismatic mysticism.
Anyways Elmer, you take the dictionary definition offered by an unbelieving world and apply it to the God of the Scriptures?
We make no headway when you quote verses without offering the slightest explanation. I could do the same in support of the trinity.
You are obviously a Unitarian, so why the subterfuge? Come straight out and tell us where you worship, whether it's a Kingdom Hall or wherever.
BTW, any religionists will profess to have love for God. But if you cannot love and worship the trinitarian God of the Bible, your profession is worthless because you've created your own god to worship.
John UK wrote: ...it was God's will to have twelve apostles of the Lamb. The fact that they ended up with about 17 apostles is neither here nor there.
By what authority did they end up with 17 John if the Lord only intended 12?
John UK wrote: As I am a sola scriptura man, I need biblical proof of such a thing as a canon.
If you don't know this John, then how do you know that you have a complete Bible in your hands? And if your Bible is not complete, then you'd better hurray to find the missing bits.
"It pleased the Lord to commit His revealed Truth wholly to writing. Therefore the Holy Scriptures are most necessary, those former ways by which God revealed His will unto His people having now ceased." BCF1689 - You don't believe this anymore?
John UK wrote: And God has set in the church, apostles, prophets, teachers and so on. ...
Historically that was an accurate statement. If there are still apostles, then the foundation is incomplete and we don't have the whole deposit of truth yet. And if miracles were performed by everyone in the NT how could Paul appeal to the signs of an apostle? And why does Hebs 2.3,4 speak in the past tense?
John UK wrote: 1. If you can find any that have the right qualifications, yes.
If they are to be normative the Lord must have left people who were witnesses of his life, death and resurrection, yes?
You don't believe that the canon of Scripture is closed?
What about NT prophets?
John UK wrote: 2. Partly... 3. For example, have you ever seen a Christian poster, with words like: Isaiah 30:21 KJV (21) And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left. If so, how do you think Christians understand that? In Frank's story about Bible smuggling (wow!) God communicated to him by his Spirit, and said, "Get ye back to the hotel, gather the Bibles together, and go hide them in your car! Quickly!"..
Powerless for sure, but I don't think because of what you're advocating.
John, please don't misrepresent what I am saying. I am not saying God doesn't speak. I am saying that we don't see eye to eye on what the speaking amounts to. My contention is that he uses his word, as A W Pink explains [URL=http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Holy_Spirit/spirit_21.htm]]]HERE[/URL] Ditch the Word and you've become a mystic!
John UK wrote: Well TS, firstly I do not have to prove that the Bible is normative (as you call it).
Should we still have apostles?
John UK wrote: Secondly, I have not mentioned an "audible voice", so let us deal with your misunderstanding. I'm talking about God communicating to men. God is a Great Spirit and he does not have a tongue, and yet he can be heard audibly by men, saying such things as, "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him." How often does this happen? Extremely rarely. If a church of 500 have in their midst five unsaved persons, and the gospel is preached. You could ask them afterwards individually, "Has God spoken to you?" Four might say, "No" but one might say, "Yes, God has spoken to me very clearly." Now they all heard the word of God (scripture), but only one heard God speaking to him. This was because God was communicating to that person. "Did you hear a voice?" "I don't know, but God very clearly SPOKE to me." Frank's wonderful testimony is another example of what I'm talking about.
Thank you for clarifying that it is not audible. As for Frank's post, I have already responded to it. Do you find fault with my response?
John UK wrote: ... Now please note that the Spirit's involvement was not restricted to apostles, but effectively to all men and women too. ..
That was an explanation of what happened at Pentecost John. If the Spirit's manifestation then was to continue in perpetuity then why was it that Peter, after he had been to Cornelius, reported "foreasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.." IOW pointing back to Pentecost, even though this was some years later. Pentecost was not an event that happened daily!
Cornelius also met an angel and an apostle. Should this be normative, if every narrative in the NT is normative?
Your understanding of the New Covenant is rather strange to say the least. The wording in Jer 31.34 says of the New Covenant that, "..they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord". Does that mean that in the NC there are no teachers or evangelists?
To me there is a desperate conflating of all sorts of issues to justify a small audible voice, and a rather feeble accusation of a third covenant for non-normative matters, when you cannot yourself prove that every NT narrative is normative.
Frank wrote: .... Had I not moved the books, they would have been discovered...
Frank I too have had experiences such as that, and also read of such experiences in accounts of Revival. But in my case, as it seems with you too, there was no voice, just a sense of urgency to do something that popped into my head. There is no way at the time that I could have said this was of God, or indeed many times even after the event. We can but conjecture whether this was of the Lord, and if it was express gratitude for deliverance etc.
John UK seems to be arguing for more than a prompting though. He appears to be arguing for intelligible words quietly spoken to us.
Brother, I don't mean just the bare reading or hearing, but as you say, really hearing God in the preaching, in the Word studied etc. Christians know what this is experientially even though it is hard to put into words. The best way I can describe it to say that the words cut into me, they sift me, they challenge me, they search me out. At other times they comfort me as no human comfort, they give hope etc There is a power in such an exercise to reshape my thinking, my feelings, my perspective etc. I'm left in awe, wonderment and love before God as I feel myself to be nothing.
John UK wrote: ..... You are claiming there are three covenants: the OT covenant, the 70 year new covenant, and the last covenant which is just like the second, except we leave things out. Back later.....
John, why put words in my mouth when I am trying seriously to understand your point? Have I mentioned a third covenant?
Acts 8.26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
It is only when he gets there that we read:
Acts 8.28 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
I don't deny that the Spirit spoke in those days to Philip, or Paul. What I want to know is that where in the narrative do you find that this is how he would continue to speak to all Christians? We have no evidence that the vast majority of Christians even in the NT were led like this, only a very select band of men. And yet, you're arguing that this is normative for us! If all of the NT narratives are to be normative, then how does your experience measure up? Worked any miracles this morning? Had any fresh revelations? Spoken in tongues lately? And if you discount any of this, are you introducing a 3rd covenant?
John UK wrote: .... Now bro, if you "pray over something", what is it you are expecting from God by way of answer? .....Well it is when we live a subnormal Christianity. We're missing out on spiritual guidance - LED by the Spirit.
In guidance we have to use sanctified common sense, our spiritual instincts as they are developed by the Spirit of God through his Word, the Word of God and finally an earnest heart seeking God's will in the matter.
There is a thinking process that God sharpens so that all the relevant Scriptural principles comes to bear on the issue to hand. Eventually we see a clear way, or if we don't we have a choice to wait some more on the Lord, or if the issue really is not that important and there are no great scriptural issues at stake, then we take a step of faith asking that if that be the wrong step the Lord will correct us. This is walking by faith, this is being led by the Spirit, because the Spirit leads by the Word of God.
I don't have a voice in my head, indistinguishable from my own thoughts to lead me. If we needed such a voice, the Bible would explain how to distinguish between our own thoughts and the voice of the Holy Spirit. I can't see any passage dealing with such an issue.
John UK wrote: St Michael, Here is an example of what I say, complete with John Gill's bizarre interpretation of it: Revelation 3:20 KJV (20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. "If any man HEAR my voice". ...in the appearances of things and providences in the world. Gill Jesus talks about knocking and speaking. Where? Does he say "I will come into HIM, and sup with HIM?" Sure. But the whole meaning is lost, because "God doesn't actually speak to anyone today." No wonder the churches are all up and down, they don't expect to hear from God, so they are not listening for God, and so they do not hear anything from God. They'll spend hours and hours reading books and listening to preaching, but how many hours are spent "in prayer"? Or should I say "minutes"?
We hear the voice of Christ in the Scriptures as we hear it preached, as we meditate and pray over it.
Are you arguing for some kind of almost audible, albeit small voice in the head?
John UK wrote: TS, walking by faith does not discount experience of God.
I didn't say that it does. Experiential Christianity and 'mystical christianity' are however 2 different things.
John UK wrote: The charismatic experience is a counterfeit of the real thing.
But from what you're saying, they would argue they have the genuine.
John UK wrote: Now bro, I could take you through hundreds of verses in the New Testament, and to each one, you would reply, "Well, God doesn't do that today." So what you're left with is a torn up Bible, and the only things left are those which are intellectually available to all and sundry. In other words, the supernatural is discounted, and the only thing left is rationale. There is no more a reconciliation with God, it is all just "legal", not deeply spiritual.
Not at all brother, unless you're saying that we should see the same wonders at the hands of human beings like the apostles, which is why Charismaticism started in the first place!
John UK wrote: TS, if you want to learn some things about revival (which is a restoration of normal Christianity) you can choose from 41 sermons by [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakeronly=true&currsection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Rev._Duncan_Campbell]]]Rev Duncan Campbell[/URL] here on SermonAudio. I do have a contention, namely, that the Christianity we have come to know in our churches, is not really getting to the heart of the matter. For an instance....
John, thanks I will listen to them as time permits.
However, if this is normal Christianity, then there have only ever been very short periods in the history of the churches when this has been the case. Also how is it then walking by faith, and how does it differ from the voices that the Charismatics hear all the time, or the daily diet of miracles that they live on?
I grant that God spoke with the apostles in a way that we don't hear, and appeared to them in ways we don't experience, but then they were being led into all the truth. There are no promises to us that we will be able to do what the apostles did, or indeed that God will communicate with us in the same way.
You will see that I am still struggling to understand.
John UK wrote: Bro, I clean forgot to answer this. Have you listened to the account of the amazing revival on the Isle of Lewis? There were two elderly, Christian sisters living there, who were living very close to God. (this is a key point.) They were mighty in prayer. (another key point.) They knew revival was coming to Lewis, and not only that, they knew the name of the preacher through whom God was going to bring a mighty revival to the place. When another preacher turned up, they asked his name and said to him, "Oh no, you're not the one God is sending here. The man God has for this place is called Duncan Campbell." Now if anyone can tell me how they got that by using sola scriptura, I would be very interested to hear about it. But then I expect the hypermen - or should I say hyperman - would discount the whole episode of The Isle of Lewis Revival as "spurious". What thinkest thou, Bro TS?
I don't know about the revival you mention so cannot really comment. However, even if true, I can only think off hand of one place in Scripture where this happened. So I would say maybe we shouldn't take God's extraordinary work as a rule for us.
Elmer K. Yoder wrote: Why would you say that? How do you get a trinity out of 3 persons each having body, soul, and spirit?
That is your definition of a person which neither I nor any true church would accept.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? If so, how is he related to the Father, assuming that you accept that the Father is also God?
Elmer K. Yoder wrote: Why is the Calvinist and like-minded Calvinist painting not accurate? Are they not murderers, killers, and State Supremacists? Do their precious creeds and faith statements profess otherwise?
Are they all murderers? Where in their creed or theological beliefs do they approve of murder? Their belief that the church and state are co-extensive is certainly an error and leads to undesired consequences, but does this make them murderers? How so?
Dorcas wrote: Well TS if memory serves me correctly, when he came back on SA there were some of us who warned our brethren and sisters concerning him. You even researched out all his old posts and posted them up for all to read. But alas the wolf was welcomed back in to the sheep pen and now we have all his spamming and subterfuge to deal with. Aye yai yai
Yes sister Dorcas. It seems discernment is at a low ebb with some, but a few who welcomed him that time around have changed their minds and consequently been labelled by him as blind and hypocritical.
My mind was made up when he came to SteveR's defense against Observer, then he stated sarcastically to Observer that interpreting Scripture with Scripture to arrive at the correct meaning was an 'interesting theory', and finally we had his Pope Dopey insanity episode.
I don't like his abusing the Word of God to play silly mind games to manipulate people either, or his verse launching.
The guy's an all round joke as far as I am concerned.
Elmer K. Yoder wrote: Someone described God as 3 co-equal persons. A person consists of body, soul, spirit. The Calvinist painting is accurate, though I do realize non-Calvinists share the same murderous spirit of Calvinism too. Why do you think it's not accurate?
Basically you deny the trinity? If so, whatever you believe, you're not a Christian -IOW a true believer in Jesus Christ.
Re: Calvinist painting - only accurate if you're into misrepresenting the position.