Mike wrote:
All men's writings

Who remarks.
"In introducing quotations from a small selection of Wesley's sermons and writings, Ryle remarks - "The doctrine of some of the discourses, I must honestly confess, is sometimes very defective. Nevertheless the volume contains many noble passages .... which are .... perfect models of good style."

"Ryle concludes his brief assessment of John Wesley by again calling on his readers to "remould their opinion of him", even though they may disagree with his Arminian opinions, he asks his readers to "take a more kindly view of the old soldier of the cross", concluding that John Wesley was a "mighty instrument in God's hand for good.""

Mike wrote:
But alas I may be some sort of John Wesleyan and not even know it. I suppose I could do worse than to study him for a time

Mike wrote:
just trying to show that apparently Calvin by his own words wasn't a 5-pointer.

That being so, question; 'Does God then "apply" the atonement (reconciliation) of His crucified Son to the reprobates who 'by His will' are bound for hell?'

Now I don't know where you stand on Christ's "substitution" of the sinner on the cross - or the (dare I say it) Arminian theory of ...
"Arminians teach that what Christ did he did for every person; therefore what he did could not have been to pay the penalty, since no one would then ever go into eternal perdition. Arminianism teaches that Christ suffered for everyone so that the Father could forgive the ones who repent and believe; his death is such that all will see that forgiveness is costly and will strive to cease from anarchy in the world God governs. This view is called the governmental theory of the atonement.” (J.K.Grider)

Not impressed wrote:
and not a single clear testimony from NBW for his view. Errorists are wedded to their errors and no reproofs will bear fruit!

Once Again Scripture clearly states that...
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Mike wrote:
edification

John UK wrote:
Were the OT saints in the flesh, or in the Spirit?

However in prediction of Pentecost Jesus stated; John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth **WITH** you,(OLD WAY) and shall be **IN** you.(FUTURE WAY)

With Jesus installed in throne, with God (Glorified) HE SENT the Holy Spirit in new powers and authority to indwell the church and the believers as Paul teaches at Rom 8:5-11.

Not impressed wrote:
where was the Spirit prior to faith? Certainly not indwelling!!

WCF 14/1 "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts"

If the Holy Spirit is not indwelling then the sinner remains in the flesh and faith does not yet exist within them. Faith is the gift of God. NOT human faculty. Eph 2:8,9.

Not Impressed wrote:
"For believing into Christ brings with it the reality of the receiving of Christ and his indwelling.
This is one and the same reality as the reception and indwelling of the Spirit, since it is in and
by the Spirit that Christ comes to dwell us......."" (Ferguson)

This is exactly the same as I have stated :-
(1) The Holy Spirit works faith in the heart of the elect.
(2) The Holy Spirit must be indwelt in the sinner to make it happen.
(3) Prior to the Spirit's indwelling the sinner is in the flesh, dead in sins, enmity with God and spiritually non-discerning.

Therefore as Ferguson states indwelling is right smack at the outset of becoming a Christian.
As I have repeatedly stated.

Lurker wrote:
He was already indwelling

John UK wrote:
Precisely! You should listen to what we are saying, take it on board, and then you can tell us all about your new understanding of the matter.

First it confounds Biblical doctrine eg Rom 8:5 ff.
Second it contributes to the RCC, Arminian, free will notion of the sinners input to being saved.
Third it attacks the plan and purpose of God taught about glorification and Pentecost and predicted by Christ, John 14:17 and 7:39.
Fourth it seeks to undermine the Holy Spirit whose role and operations post glorification/Pentecost were changed to indwelling. The "comforter" and "advocate" would become "God within us" and the Christian would
be "filled with the Spirit." Thus does the believer more powerfully connect with God and transcend beyond mortal experience, knowledge and existence, John 16:7-15, in a way not available to the people of the OT. Christ's glorification to the throne of God and from there His "sending" of the Spirit, together with the Spirit's miraculous descent at Pentecost heralded a new and powerful era for the church and the individual.
Indwelling!!

Lurker wrote:
prayed ... receive the Holy Ghost

"The laying on of hands followeth prayers, whereby they testify that the grace of the Spirit is not included in the external ceremony, which they crave humbly at the hands of another. And yet when they confess that God is the author, they neglect not the ceremony which was delivered them by God to this use; and because they usurp it not rashly, the effect is also annexed. This is the profit and efficacy of signs, because God worketh in them, and yet he remaineth the only giver of grace and distributeth the same according to his good pleasure; but let us remember that the laying on of hands was the instrument of God, at such time as he gave the visible graces of the Spirit to his, and that since the Church was deprived of such riches, it is only a vain visor without any substance." (Calvin)

"They laid their hands on them, to signify that their prayers were answered, and that the gift of the Holy Ghost was conferred upon them; for, upon the use of this sign, they received the Holy Ghost, and spoke with tongues." (Henry)

Mike wrote:
1) indwelling is part of the life of the Christian, not the non Christian
2) If as you say the sinner is converted prior to knowledge of sin and repentance and prior to knowing he needs a savior

And don't forget Mike, as I've told you before Faith is the gift of God. Eph 2:8.

2) The ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also CALLED: and whom he CALLED, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

John UK wrote:
1) The call of Christ does not require indwelling of the Spirit:
2) Matthew 4:17-22
3) The voice of Christ can reach anywhere.
4) The one who is adamant that God has decided to save sinners without reference to their will nor to their thinking nor to repentance nor to believing on Christ

2) Matt 4 - IS BEFORE glorification and Pentecost. Check your Bible!

3) We are discussing the indwelling of the Spirit - NOT the earthly work of Christ.

4) God saves the elect without their cooperation or acquiescence. GOD DOES NOT NEED PERMISSION TO SAVE. As Christ states He came to save sinners - under the dominion of sin, who at that time are spiritually blind.
Yet again you err towards the heresy of Arminianism. The papal antichrists "salvation by works" philosophy.

Lurker wrote:
your own WCF properly deals with the texts ....
WCF 14 *Of Saving Faith*
1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,(a) is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts

Not impressed wrote:
How are they going to ask for the Holy Spirit without the Holy Spirit?

Jesus in this same teaching says
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Only the elect receiveth, findeth and gains access by the open door. Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
John 10:3 ... and the sheep HEAR his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 ... and the sheep follow him: for THEY KNOW his voice.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ... 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:

Mike wrote:
but the Spirit does not indwell the unpardoned.

Curious wrote:
how did they believe prior to being sealed?!!!

John 6:63 IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES **BY** his **SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH** in you.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath QUICKENED us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And HEREBY WE KNOW that he abideth in us, BY THE SPIRIT which he hath given us.

Curious wrote:
Eph 1.13 again... in whom AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise

The time when they can quote; "receiveth the things of the Spirit of God:"
Is when the Holy Spirit indwells them.