"The government owns and controls AIG. Taxpayer funds authorized by an explicit legislative grant are being used to pay sharia authorities â€” in other words, theyâ€™re being used to legitimate and promote Islamic religious law."
Now theres a twist? Sounds like America is funding Jihad - against itself.
DJC49 wrote: Lucifer made the BIG mistake: he took his eyes off God and focused his attention and worship on himself -- the created one
Yeah well that is the SIN of vanity. You still didn't reply to Mike's question. From whence doth it come?
Both you and charlie boyo have dug themselves into a deep hole on this. Did God build sin, of whatever effect, into all created beings?? Viz do you teach God to be the originator of all sin and evil in all created beings?
Charles comes with a predisposed ideology on "sovereignty" - That God's purpose is served by His intimate control of every sinful thought and deed of man, (eg the NY shooter). Thus charles sees mortals as the complete robot and NOT autonomous in any independant faculty whatsoever.
If YOUR doctrine is such, that it is predisposed to locate the source of evil, (whatever form) iniquity and transgression IN GOD, then YOU make Him out to be the ultimate author of all sin.
BUT righteousness does not lie with, nor is it served by iniquity transgression and sin. "what concord hath Christ with belial?" 2Cor 6:15.
BTW who is this "Lucifer" guy you refer to? Whats the King of Babylon got to do with this topic?
Well I tried with the help of a few friends from ecclesiastical history. But I guess if you are predisposed to make God the author of sin and responsible for evil, there is nothing I can do about it.
I will leave God Himself to make manifest to you the truth.
DJC49 "Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, BECAUSE OUR GOD IS NOT AMONG US?" Deut 31:17.
DJC49. Just because the judge executes justice among the criminals does not mean he too is a criminal
Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
"God's necessary will means that HE cannot deny Himself but that He must act consistently with His own nature. There are some things which He wills necessarily, some things which HE CANNOT DO (2Tim 2:13, Heb 6:18, James 1:13, 1Sam 15:29, Num 23:19). God's will is not arbitrary, as the medieval theologian Duns Scotus said it is. Scotus held that God can save by an act of will alone without satisfaction for sin through atonement. Since the sovereign God has absolute freedom and power, He can do whatsoever He desires. Even the moral order Duns Scotus said is based on a decree which could have been altered. THIS VIEW THREATENED THE BIBLICAL PICTURE OF GOD, the foundation of Christian morality and other doctrine; hence it had to be withstood in the church. Bavinck gives the Biblical position, "God's will is identical with His being, His wisdom, His goodness and with all His attributes. And it is for this reason that man's heart and mind can rest in that will, for it is the will not of blind fate, incalculable fortune, or dark energy of nature but of an omnipotent GOD and merciful FATHER" (Doctrines of God p235) (Elwell Theol Dic)
prince charles wrote: 'There was no need. Let each man's argument stand' Hey thats a good idea castanet why dont you try it some time ? you know, follow your own advice ?
I did NOT say that "prince" charles!!! It was Candle lit who said that!!! Read the posts a little more closely please.
"prince" = vanity goes with heresy does it?
As for the many expletives you've used in your accusations - I suppose this comes from your theological and academic expertise in this area. Which theological college in Wales did you attend? That should be interesting since my Theological degree was also sourced in a Welsh college.
DJC49 wrote: "So the LORD SENT A PESTILENCE upon Israel .....and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men." 2Sam 24:15
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL" Isa 45:7
"For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: BUT EVIL CAME DOWN FROM THE LORD ..... Jerusalem." Mic 1:12
Tell me DJC49 can you tell the difference between God's justice in these cases above and the daily local crime wave in you area?
On the sovereign statement you quote Isaiah 45:7 "create evil" Take a good look at the word "evil" in Hebrew, eg "adversity" "calamity" etc etc. I have no doubt about the omnipotency of God indeed I have argued for it many times on this very site. And God here is stating how omnipotent He is.
But where I draw the line is charles and his blame game! The NY immigration murders he claims are by direct association with sovereign will! This is fallacy. Secondly this "prayer" BECAUSE people are ill is a nonsense and should be corrected. This erroneous view of sovereign will is unacceptable.
You have supported these claims and indeed that is what you are trying to do now in your post. Using the verses quoted it would appear that you relate them with the NY incident???
i pray for the sick sometimes thats why they are ill isnt it ? so we can pray for them
Wonder what Peter Masters and John MacArthur would say being lined up with Fred Phelps???
So do we now have to believe that God makes people ill - just to get a prayer out of His disciples??? Another work of evil by the "sovereign will" of this god of duplicity!!! When he is not getting murderers to kill people at the local immigration centre, he provides diseases to the unfortunate that his flock might find a reason for prayers???
This gets worse and worse!!! Either this is sheer mockery or an insidious attack on sovereignty.
John UK, DJC49 and Candle lit your support for this sad heresy, makes it all the more embarrassing for the true Christians around here. If y'all are so convinced that God is really this wicked in His sovereign purpose, plan and justice for mankind then why not try Buddhism.
2John 10 "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed"
charles m wrote: Yes the shooter is a sinner. God has the right to send him doesnt he ? Like the earthquakes in italy at the moment God is angry with people in italy and He has the right to remind them of that by sending an earthquake (or two) and its merciful because some might repent
Apparently in charles's doctrine two wrongs DO make a right?????
To level ANY blame at God for man's life of transgression AGAINST God is completely inconsistent with the righteousness, mercy and justice inherent within God and recorded in His Scripture.
Righteous justice is never served with evil practice, and the Lord does not work this way in creation anyway.
David obviously also thought differently.
Psalm 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
charles m wrote: i am not incriminating God i think they are his judgements and whats more i think they are good ''God is obliged to discharge justice in His creation BECAUSE of His righteousness!'' God is not obliged by anything 'The Flood = Discharge of justice upon mankind by the righteous Judge.' Ok millions of sinners righteously judged and died 'Shooter = Sin by a murderer because he is an evil hearted sinner.There is no justice in what he did.' so the victims were not sinners and didnt deserve to die ? the perpetrator of the crime was 'an evil hearted sinner' obviously a freak then, not like you and me at all - phew ! im glad im not like that wicked person God had nothing to do with this ? IOW did the preflood sinners deserve to die but the recently deseased did not ? its a bit hard on the antedeluvians isnt it
I do not agree with any of this. I see you as trying to pin the sin/injustice/crime on God?
I do not recognise this doctrine at all. It is not Calvinism. But any implication of God's "responsibility" being somehow associated with man's sin is Hyper-C.
It seems that you begin at a predisposed conviction of God's sovereignty being somehow causal to all sinful actions of mankind. This is in error.
charles m wrote: noah was spared because of his righteousness and the world perished because of unrighteousness but there is no connection between that shall we say 'macro' judgement and the 'micro' judgement of the shooter, which is therefore you advise not a judgement at all
You are still trying to "incriminate" the Judge(God)!
The difference between the judge and the criminal - The judge is NOT guilty. The criminal/sinner IS guilty, and deserves punishment.
Justice implemented does NOT incriminate the Judge.
God is obliged to discharge justice in His creation BECAUSE of His righteousness!
The Flood = Discharge of justice upon mankind by the righteous Judge.
Shooter = Sin by a murderer because he is an evil hearted sinner. There is no justice in what he did.
charles m wrote: God sent the flood and lots of seven year olds and babes and infants and old people and young died
get all indignant about that if you want but God still did it.
However it is done, or whatever words or ideas are used to communicate it; - Making God out to be the origin of sin, (as charles m is doing here), - is pure **Hyper-calvinism.** - Which is heresy!
I've seen the label used a few times here on site and usually it is uninformed and in error.
But this is one of the tenets of Hyper-calvinism to try to make God out to be the author of sin and evil.
It is one of Satan's cunning or subtle ways of confounding the churches.
The flood was RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT upon sin - NOT sin of itself. God *allows* creation to experience His justice as part of the divine purpose. But He never, ever initiates iniquity, sin or transgression because He does not have to. Man does that all by himself without any prompting from any source. Psalm 94:23.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts OF HIS HEART was only evil continually."
Matt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies"
John UK wrote: Hey, why don't you get off God's back, and let him do what he will. We are responsible for our own lives, and that is quite sufficient for me
These verses apparently are missing from your copy of the Bible.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
John UK wrote: "I simply disagree with those Calvinists who believe in double predestination. (They haven't gone away)" What! You mean HYPERMAN!!! He's still here??? Ooo err....
John I keep telling you that you don't know a "Hyper C." from a duck. But you keep coming up with bad theology and error. IF you want to use this term FIND OUT WHAT IT MEANS FIRST. After all you wouldn't want to deceive people would you???????
Presumably you do not believe that GOD had anything to do with the fact that some sinners are NOT ELECT; - Yet receive righteous justice from God and are sent to hell. Is this justice by accident???
Or that God in His omniscience can't tell the difference between His Elect and the reprobate???
I would give you a link to the definition of a Hyper C. - But I've done it before and you obviously have a different agenda when in your truculent mood???
Mike wrote: Guilty as charged with what? Being born? Oh, I forgot, they were created guilty before they were born. Were they more guilty than the selected elected? Are not all sinners? Or are some sinners more guilty than others? Or is guilt not a factor at all?
Mike Is that really you asking these questions?
Is the mortal born a sinner?
Or is sin just another effect of his all-powerful free will?
"more guilty" Nope we are all the same IN GOD'S EYES.
As for the rest of your statement above.... God incarnate called Jesus the Son of God, makes ALL the difference. HE died on a cross was crucified and by this JUSTIFIES, before God, those drawn by God to His Son.
44 NO MAN CAN come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
9 Much more then, being NOW JUSTIFIED by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were RECONCILED to God by the death of his Son, much more, BEING RECONCILED, we shall be saved by his life.
19 To wit, that GOD WAS in Christ, RECONCILING the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;
Mike wrote: But John, how are we to account for their preselection to this sad state? Are we not told the selected shall live, and the non-selected...well, into the flames with them, they were predestinated to this fate, and rightly so, harumph?
Ah Mike but don't forget they were all guilty as charged. You don't want these criminals to be set free do you?
Wow!! It really is a good job that you theological experts are here to correct us.
BTW Hell is a spiritual entity where the physical parts of the mortal don't go. So how can fire and flames hurt them to make them cry out with a physical sound by a physical voice box (larynx) they no longer possess???
Thankyou DJC49 and "Take Heed" for such serious orthodox theological acumen. Par Excellence.
Now folks the next quest is "What about this guy with the big horns and the forked tail???"