John UK wrote: Seems to me there is a good parallel with evangelism. As one said, "We preach as though it all depended on us..but pray knowing it all depends on God's grace."
Yes there is a good parallel here. 90% of the fish are in less than 10% of the lake. You can have all the proper tools, enticements, bait and above all, presentation. But if they are not biting, there not biting. But if the pressure is right and the moon is in the right place, hang on tight!
Just like evangalism, we prophesy to dead bones, but without the wind (breath)coming from the 4 corners of the earth, the bones will not come to life!
John UK wrote: Hey Roger That's some great photos, lake looks a nice place to fish. But how do you stay warm???? The nearest we have to walleye, going by the pics, is an imported fish called Zander. It's also called a Pike-Perch by some, and grows about the same size. The biggest predator we have is The Pike. It has no dorsal spines, but is like a vicious shark with a massive mouth. Here it grows to about 30-40 lbs.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: If a doctrinal system is to be judged by its fruits and one constantly meets people who profess to espouse a particular system but whose behaviour is anything but Christian, then why should there be blame attached to the person who judges that particular system of belief to be false?
If we are to judge ones's belief and or doctrines by the way WE behave on these boards, then the Christian faith is not valid at all.
However, the objective truths and the fruit of Christ's obedience, even unto death is what validate the doctrine of christianity.
And are you attempting to diqualify reformed doctrine based upon tasting the fruit of my street preaching?
John UK. Yes we have large perch and very large walleye. World record thru the ice 4 years ago by a priest! Scroll down to the bottom of the page.
[URL=http://www.walleyecentral.com/tenpoundclub/?PID=82#116]]]18.3 Pounds Thru the Ice![/URL]
Hey Calvinist Understanding, do snow cleared streets on the lake count for street preaching?
[URL=http://www.walleyecentral.com/tenpoundclub/?PID=1102#1363]]]My son in my boat with some big ones![/URL]
John UK wrote: Good morning RogerAnt Yes, I really enjoyed reading Sproul, as he seemed to be putting into theological language that which I believed in my simple turnip way. I learnt an awful lot from that reading, and might turn to him on other issues as well. All things work together for good, to them that love God, to them that are called according to his purpose. Even heated discussion. You must be living in a very cold area, in the middle lands. What is your temperature range? And do you really go fishing in the ice? I've been an angler on and off for 50 years or so. In the UK we are blessed by having millions of mackerel feeding close to the shoreline evey summer which are very easy to catch and cook.
I do believe that Sproul is the best contemporary resource on Reformation theology right now. Not the best preacher, but knows reformation theologians well.
It has warmed up this week. Highs near 0 C that is 32 F for you Americans. But for most of this winter so far the highs have been about -26 and lows around -35 C, -31 F.
Yes we fish on lakes on the ice. It is about 2.5 feet thick now. We have a heated shack which is quite comfortable. Walleye Jack Perch and Lake Trout.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: Rogerant What is your problem? Why don't you stop trying to put Michael into a convenient theological box. He has already said that he does not espouse Calvinism or Arminianism. So why do you post like you are writing to an Arminian?
I would leave Michael Hranek alone if he would not consider it his mission in life to continually attack and misrepresent John Calvin, the WCF, and continually preach at us. As for his confession of not holding to a Arminian or Calvinist position, he has been asked on numerous occasions to post his position on election and defend it with scripture. DJC49 asked him numerous times last week, but he chose not to defend his doctrine.
BTW: Bishop J C Ryle was a Anglican Calvinist.
Roger from Northeast
Perhaps you are on the wrong thread for what you are looking for. BTW, you came on the board and received quite a bit of attention. Therefore it is evident that we don't have monopoly powers on the board.
Good morning John UK. I thank you for reading RC Sprouls paper. I do believe that we were just splitting hairs as the meaning of Dbl Predestination is miss represented some times.
John UK wrote: Oooooooh Apercu You ascribe to me many things I don't believe in the rest of your post, so I will ignore them and forgive you. Now then, according to my Collins dictionary, here is the definition of reprobation: 2. Christianity. condemnation to eternal punishment in hell; rejection by God. Now what do you find about that to curl your toes? Is that not a good definition? Where's your problem?
How about letting the reformers define their own doctrine:
[URL=http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html]]]Is the belief in reprobation double predestination[/URL]
And yes Apercu
When it comes to making distinctions between God's holiness and man's wickedness, we can use the following anology. In a picture of contrasting colors, If God's holiness is depicted as white, and evil as being black, the distinction between Hitler and Mother Theresa is different shades of black. There is no one in the grey area.
Hmmm Doesn't it seem strange that the politenesswomen only show up when DJC49 and Rogerant transgress their line of gentleness, but are nowhere to be seen when we are attacked? Myabe it has more to do with not agreeing with THEIR theology rather than on conduct alone.
John UK wrote: Sure they did, Roger, because none of them believed the nonelect were predestinated unto damnation.
George Whitefield, that stalwart of the eighteenth century, used by God in blessing to so many, wrote: "'Without doubt, the doctrine of election and reprobation must stand or fall together... I frankly acknowledge I believe the doctrine of Reprobation, that God intends to give saving grace, through Jesus Christ, only to a certain number; and that the rest of mankind, after the fall of Adam, being justly left to God to continue in sin, will at last suffer that eternal death which is its proper wages."
Check again there John!
And the Gideon's were 5 point Calvinists.
And we obey the scripture to love all men regardless and to preach to them.
The only ones that believe that there is nno point in preaching to the lost because of double predestination is you people. We preach to the lost because preaching is the means that God uses to save people. We do it out of obedience. Can you find in the WCF where we are taught NOT to preach to the lost?
lyn wrote: This comment, 'we do have a heart for lost souls. We pray for Michael Hranek all the time' is very disturbing. Please, let's not let our flesh get in the way as we debate to the point of dividing.
Yes, the point about praying for Michael was in jest Lyn.
And anyway, why don't you come to our defense when someone charges us for not having a heart for the lost. We were once lost, and it is by the grace of God only that we are saved. We want to share the love of grace of God as much as the next fellow.
Did not Spurgeon, Whitfield, the Gideons have a heart for the lost? Why in earth do Arminians think that they have the sole ownership of having a loving heart.
We do believe "But God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: Michael Hranek I would rather fellowship with a man whose heart is right and warm, who may not have all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed, than someone who is theologically orthodox but has little or no heart for lost souls.
I would like to correct you on a couple of items.
We do have a heart for lost souls. That is why we encourage unbelievers to look to Christ for their salvation by faith alone, not your twelve step program that leaves them where they are.
We do have a heart for lost souls. We pray for Michael Hranek all the time.
A Bible Christian Who Believes wrote: No, "rogerant", you're the one whose filled with the load of garbage: As you're the one who's SO WAY OUTSIDE of Historic Authorized Biblical Literalist Orthodox (Normal) (Judeo-)Christian Teaching ! and The Wicked Dwelling in "Torments" or The Torturing Part of Hell [Hades] which was/is Full of Fire) BEFORE The Resurrection of The LORD Jesus Christ. read Josepheus !
Do you mean Josephus, the Jewish historian? Or are you actually talking about a theologian?
Do you know of any historic denomination or theologian that shares your view here? If it is the orthodox view, then you should be able to find it in the majority of historic and contemporary sources.
BTW I do read the literal passages of scripture literally, and I read the figurative passages figuratively and I read the symbolic passages symbolically, but I do not allegorize.
I use the historic-redemptive/christo-centric hermeneutic. Which method do you use?
And if you do use a consistent literal hermeneutic, how large was Abraham's bosom and how did all of those righteous saints fit in there? It must have been very tight!
A Bible Christian Who Believes wrote: Looks like you Don't believe The Authorized Holy Bible "Guiness"; with your talk & UnScriptural nonsense. The "Great Gulf Fixed" has already been "FILLED-UP", "BROKEN-UP-or-DOWN and/or DONE-AWAY-WITH Since The LORD Jesus Christ "Preached Unto The Spirits In Prison" & "Led Captivity Captive"
What a load of garbage. You are SO WAY OUTSIDE of orthodox (normal) christian teaching!
The gulf has been bridged for the saints only! There is still a gulf between the lost or reprobate and God.
Mike wrote: Nah, they're Calvinist, because God predestined them to be
Actually Mike, the emergent church movement have abandoned the reformation view of atonement and predestination as do your group.
From the emergent church:
"There are certain trends and commonalities within the movement, but what is held in common is the belief that the "old perspective" (the Lutheran and Reformed interpretations of Paul and Judaism) is fundamentally incorrect."
John UK wrote: So imagine, if you would, that God had put you in the second category. He brought you into this world purely to show to the world how great he, as God, was, and that no man, including you, may gainsay or go against him. He did not regard your sin in Adam, nor your sin in life, nor your rejection of his Son, but merely predestined your eternal damnation FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
Now perhaps imagine this:
Perhaps God in desiring to show all of His creation, including elect and reprobate angels and everyone living being that He has created, the following:
That there is NO ONE ELSE apart from Him that knows GOOD from EVIL. That NO ONE apart from Himself, with a free will, has the capacity to determine good from evil. Since God is all that is good, because He is in essence, the source of all goodness.
He had a rebellion in heaven, Satan and all the fallen angles, that believed that they had the ability to determine their own destiny, even though God created them and us, for Himself and His glory.
But there are some here, that believe that they were created so that they themselves, might glorify themselves by the utilization of their free will to choose good from evil.
John UK wrote: Pinky again: "...therefore in giving being and birth to those He knew would reject Christ, He necessarily created them unto damnation. All that can be said in reply to this is, No, while God did foreknow these ones would reject Christ, yet He did not decree that they should." Good ol' Pinky.
But, finish the rest of the paragraph...
But this is a begging of the real question at issue. God had a definite reason why He created men, a specific purpose why He created this and that individual, and in view of the eternal destination of His creatures, He purposed either that this one should spend eternity in Heaven or that this one should spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. If then He foresaw that in creating a certain person that that person would despise and reject the Savior, yet knowing this beforehand He, nevertheless, brought that person into existence, then it is clear He designed and ORDAINED that that person should be eternally lost.
Again; faith is Godâ€™s gift, and the purpose to give it only to some, involves the purpose not to give it to others...hence if there were some of Adamâ€™s descendants to whom He purposed not to give faith, it must be because He ordained that they should be DAMNED.
DJC49 wrote: I hold to neither view -- i.e., that ALL the decrees of God are ETERNAL and have no particular point in Time when they were made since God made them OUTSIDE of Time ... before Time was ever created!
Would that make you are a transcendentalapsarian?
What is the correct terminology for that position and do you know of any Reformed adherants?
John UK wrote: It is a single predestination, you see. And my position is very much biblically based.
Teachers of Double Predestination include:
John Bunyan, author of â€śThe Pilgrimâ€™s Progress,â€ť wrote a whole volume on â€śReprobationâ€ť. From it we make one brief extract:â€” â€śReprobation is before the person cometh into the world, or hath done good or evil. This is evidenced by Romans 9:11. Here you find twain in their motherâ€™s womb, and both receiving their destiny, not only before they had done good or evil, but before they were in a capacity to do it, they being yet unbornâ€”their destiny, I say, the one unto, the other not unto the blessing of eternal life; the one elect, the other reprobate; the one chosen, the other refusedâ€ť.
In his â€śSighs from Hellâ€ť, John Bunyan also wrote: â€śThey that do continue to reject and slight the Word of God are such, for the most part, as are ordained to be damned â€ť.
Wycliffe, Huss, Ridley, Hooper, Cranmer, Ussher, John Trapp, Thomas Goodwin, Thomas Manton (Chaplain to Cromwell), John Owen, Witsius, John Gill (predecessor of Spurgeon), A.W. Pink and MARTIN LUTHER.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: We have to, according to your gospel, do nothing more than pronounce woes on the reprobate! Do you know who they are? So much for the Gospel being Good News for sinners!
No, we are not commanded anywhere to pronounce woes to the "reprobate" We do not know who the reprobate or the elect are. Only God does. We are however commanded to pronounce woes to every sinner, and to proclaim the gospel to every sinner. We are to proclaim to everyone that Christ died for sinners and them ask them, are you a sinner? We preach to everyone, not because we have the ability to convince them of the gospel, but because we are commanded to and because it is the means that God uses to regenerate His elect.
Yes, the teaching of Romans 9 is the gospel. It is "good news" for them who believe in Christ. Why is it good news, and why is it comforting to believers? Because the basis of our salvation is outside of our feeble and sinful grasp. We are not left to sustaining our own salvation. It is in the hands of a omnipotent and loving Father who will not let us out of his hand. Thanks be to God for this love of aprobation.