John UK wrote: Let me prove to you biblically that the disciples were born again before Pentecost.
I have no doubt in my mind that whilst Christ Jesus was on earth rounding up His Apostles and disciples that something exceptional and unique was happening. The first and prime example of that was the Son of God himself was present.
However "regeneration" (born again) did not commence until the Holy Spirit came down in power as presented in Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Previous to this event - nobody on earth was "born again" (born of the Spirit)(John 3:6) as we know it today.
Jesus said John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John UK wrote: (1) You can read all about it in Acts 2. This is called the Pentecostal experience for short.
(2) Now my question is concerning whether or not the 120 disciples were regenerate or not, when they were praying (wow!) in an upper room at Pentecost.
(3) You see, it would be rather a sore point with you if they were out preaching and healing the sick while in an unregenerate state
(1) Acts 2 and the "upper room" events are two completely different events.
(2) 120 people ALL in the upper room???? Mk 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 17 And in the evening he cometh with the TWELVE. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said,..."
(3) They were unregenerate. Whilst Christ was amongst them He and the Holy Spirit enabled them for the task at this special one off time, but did not regenerate them. Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." This is the first instance of the Holy Spirit's regeneration type effect on earth.
John UK wrote: (1) the Pentecostal experience in the upper room
(2) And what were these disciples, yes disciples of Jesus, called by him and twelve of them called to be apostles, commissioned by Jesus to go out preaching and teaching and healing the sick and casting out devils, doing in the upper room?
(3)Were they in their "natural man" or were they not?"
(1) Never heard of that its not in Scripture.
(2) They were having tea with Jesus. EG:: Mark 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me." Eating supper is not a quote Pentecostal experience.
Mike wrote: At what point in the "process of salvation" does the one who has been born again of the Spirit become saved?
Mike According to God the election "process" began before the world began.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, _____________
Lurker wrote: Presby won't give you a straight answer
That answer straight enough for you Lurker?
Mike referred to the "process" and election is where it all begins. Remember and try not to cut God out of the picture. All to often thats what your average DIY advocate does.
John UK wrote: And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. John 1:33 KJV For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 KJV But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea,
Three thousand souls converted in one short sermon? Where did all that power come from? "Ye shall receive power..." The disciples were transformed when they were BAPTISED WITH THE SPIRIT
The disciples were transformed by REGENERATION (born again) of the Spirit.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
RP Sorry I forgot to mention "Baptism in the Spirit" This is a Pentecostal teaching. As a Traditional Scottish Presbyterian I don't recognise Baptism in the Spirit as a Biblical teaching. It is a relatively new concept and as far as I am concerned "Regeneration" is what happens with the Holy Spirit as per John 3:6. Nothing else is required than that according to the Bible.
Quote "Until the 20th century theologians paid little attention to the phrase the baptism of the Holy Spirit: and the relative neglect could claim some biblical justification. The precise wording the baptism of the Spirit does not occur anywhere in the New Testament and the idea itself occurs very infrequently. There are in fact only three references: in Matt. 3:11 (and parallels) where John the Baptist proclaims that Christ will baptize in the Holy Spirit; in Acts 1: 5 where our Lord Himself promises that the disciples will be baptized in the Holy Spirit; and in 1 Cor. 12:13 where Paul affirms that all Christians were baptized in one Spirit." [URL=http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Holy%20Spirit/spiritbaptism.html]]]Baptism in the Spirit. By Donald MacLeod[/URL]
"In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.
"Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole."[URL=http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/]]]Monergism[/URL]
So the Arminians can apply their own faculties (faith) - Thereby elect themselves Convict themselves of sin and repent if they want to Therefore if God is "satisfied" they get born again as a reward
RP wrote: from Spencer's book and then have you tell me if you do or do not agree. "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not to be confused with Regeneration. Although both take place almost instantaneously, and involve only the elect, still they are not identical. Regeneration is the act of God whereby he "quickens" (brings to life) a dead human spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the act of God which unites a regenerated believer with the true Church (called the body of Christ) Therefore Paul says: "By one Spirit we are all baptized into one Body." 1 Cor.12:13.
RP I disagree with the above Mr Spencer (whoever he is).
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Thus Regeneration - viz "born again" - Is to be born of the Spirit.
Regeneration -(in the Holy Spirit)- begins the process of salvation of the Elect. Part of the outcome of this is conversion namely faith plus repentance. Justification and the process of sanctification follows. As per Romans 8:29,30.
John UK apparently does not require divine input for these he uses his own faculties rather than the Holy Spirit. "Hence salvation by John"(works) Conflicts with Eph 2:9.
Faith PRODUCES repentance.... "That repentance not only always follows faith, but is produced by it, ought to be without controversy, For since pardon and forgiveness are offered by the preaching of the Gospel, in order that the sinner, delivered from the tyranny of Satan, the yoke of sin, and the miserable bondage of iniquity, may pass into the kingdom of God, it is certain that no man can embrace the grace of the Gospel without retaking himself from the errors of his former life into the right path, and making it his whole study to practice repentance. Those who think that repentance precedes faith instead of flowing from, or being produced by it, as the fruit by the tree, have never understood its nature, and are moved to adopt that view on very insufficient grounds." (Calvin's Inst Bk.3, ch.3)
WCF 14/1 The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,(a) is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,(b) (b) Eph 1:17-19; 2:8; 2 Cor 4:13.
Repentance is produced by faith which is wrought by the Holy Spirit.
John UK wrote: The Spirit works a work in the poor sinner's heart - WITHOUT INDWELLING HIM! This mighty work, call it what you will, quickening, regeneration,
But the Spirit does NOT indwell until JUSTIFICATION occurs.
UNTRUE! Again this is more Roman Arminian works based religious theory. You appear to be suggesting that we justify ourself - BEFORE the Holy Spirit enters into our heart. That is complete error.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which HE SHED ON US ABUNDANTLY through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
John UK wrote: You must either accept that the "gift of the Holy Ghost" is regeneration, occurring after repentance, OR You must accept that "the gift of the Holy Ghost" is NOT regeneration, and it DOES occur after repentance. Which is it?
STOP!! Teaching salvation by works it is unBiblical unChristian heresy.
Or. Confirm your allegiance to the Vatican and the Arminian works based religions.
"that God in Christ commandeth men to repent, and believe the gospel. It is one of the saddest proofs of man's utter depravity that he will not obey this command, but that he will despise Christ, and so make his doom worse than the doom of Sodom and Gomorrah. Without the regenerating work of God the Holy Ghost, no man ever will be obedient to this command" CHS
"That repentance not only always follows faith, but is produced by it, ought to be without controversy, (see Calvin in Joann. 1: 13.) For since pardon and forgiveness are offered by the preaching of the Gospel, in order that the sinner, delivered from the tyranny of Satan, the yoke of sin, and the miserable bondage of iniquity, may pass into the kingdom of God, it is certain that no man can embrace the grace of the Gospel without retaking himself from the errors of his former life into the right path, and making it his whole study to practice repentance. Those who think that repentance precedes faith instead of flowing from, or being produced by it, as the fruit by the tree, have never understood its nature, and are moved to adopt that view on very insufficient grounds." (John Calvin) (Inst Bk III. Chap III)
SermonAudio sermon by C.H.Spurgeon - [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1026071631350]]]Faith and Repentance Inseparable[/URL]
Spurgeon states; - "God commands in the Gospel that man is to repent and believe the Gospel. Without the regenerating work of God the Holy Ghost, no man ever will be obedient to this command"
Man in his natural state IS under the dominion of sin. The Papists and their brothers the Arminians try to make out that sin is just a head cold rather than a power over the sinner. Gal 5:17ff.
Thus man cannot - cannot repent because repentance is a saving Grace wrought by the Holy Spirit. Repentance is provided by God in (1) Knowledge and comprehension of sin, and (2) the grace of repentance. Otherwise how can the sinner blinded by Satan, be convicted of sin? 2Cor 7:10, Acts 11:18. See also 1Cor 2:14.
How God does these things is by grace, and by the Holy Spirit. John 3:16, John 6:44,65. Until he is born of the Spirit man is under the DOMINION of sin (Rom 6:14) and it is heretical deceit to underestimate the power of sin over man. John 3:20.
There is NO OTHER MEANS by which man is enabled in a spiritual way to overcome the flesh - see Gal 5:17.
These recent posts by the Roman Arminians on here seek to destroy the harmony and fellowship of the Trinity especially the work of the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemous heresy, just as the Canons of Dordt point out.
"Quickening" is carried out by the Holy Spirit, (John 6:63) and before this quickening the sinner is dead - DEAD - in his sins. How can a dead sinner REPENT This is the seeds of works religion - FALLACY
Acts 2:38 The idea that this verse is GOD doing something in response to something man (dead in sin) does, ie repent, is simply the same old popish deception of salvation by works and those who follow this are not Christian. RCC, JW's and now Lurkerism & Co. clearly want their salvation to originate from themselves, in accordance with Roman Arminianism. This undermines God and His foreknowledge of man and His elect. They obviously cannot trust in a sovereign God.
It is plain old satanic deceit, lies and counterfeit religion to suggest that God acts INDEPENDENTLY of the Holy Spirit to provide man with another method of spiritual decision or choice. Nothing in Scripture teaches this heretical deception.
Many have followed this pernicious way already, leaving the Bible and forsaking God, the Crucified Christ and the Holy Spirit and His work in the heart of the elect. Repentance is a work of Grace not of dead sinners. How sad that some around here do not know this Bible teaching.
2Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of."
John UK wrote: A sinner is DEAD spiritually, and cannot, nor desires to, prepare himself for salvation, nor can he believe, nor can he repent
Which means the sinner in his natural estate CANNOT REPENT - before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is what I have been saying all along! Now don't go back to hyperWesleyan theories again. _________
Lurker wrote: Ever consider the biblical teaching that faith toward God **IS REPENTANCE*
Nope they are two different things which is why everybody uses two different words to describe them. #FAITH:- In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers"
#REPENTANCE:- In theology, the pain, regret or affliction which a person feels on account of his past conduct, because it exposes him to punishment. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance ..." OOS!
John UK wrote: You post up any quote from me which is "obviously" Roman Arminian method of salvation
Not that old trick again John. You keep doing this back pedaling act!!
Your post 11/10/11 5:05 PM Quote; "you imagine God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to an ungodly sinner before he has even expressed a desire to repent of his sins. Now biblically this is incorrect" unquote.
Here John you are implying that the sinner, dead in his sins, unable to spiritually discern, not born again of the Spirit, - can REPENT - therefore is under the conviction of sins BY HIS OWN VOLITION???
That is pure unadulterated Roman Catholic Arminian salvation by human effort. In fact it is hyper-Wesleyan!!
You must stop posting this Sinner Assisted Salvation (SAS)
Why thankyou Lurker. So you believe the sinner can save himself and that you don't need God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Well you are not the first and probably will not be the last. Call Benedict16 you have a lot in common. Your theory that the sinner can repent without any divine input means that the sinner can convict himself of sin too. Thats unBiblical too. BTW repentance "proceeds" from faith and does not "precede" it. This must mean you consider faith as a purely human faculty also. Does God, Christ and the Spirit get involved at all in your works based religion? __________
Mike wrote: The Bible tells us it precedes
Ah Mike; Ye olde Roman Arminian DIY salvation still has you by the free will! As the Bible says you really should leave God as sovereign over who gets saved. It's His Heaven! ____________
John UK wrote: where does "quickening" come into the scheme of things? As in "And you hath he quickened, which were dead..."
Yes I can see where that would confuse you John convinced as you obviously are of the Roman Arminian method of salvation. It must be upsetting for you to think Christ might muscle in on the act.
Lurker wrote: indwelling of the spirit comes after repentance and faith
The conviction of sin happens in the NATURAL man???
Mike wrote: If one is regenerated, to what end would you have him trust in Christ?
Faith *IS* trust in Christ!!!
Well Well Well Arminianism, Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism the old works based religion of the Roman Catholics is alive and well and working right here on the site. Sadly!
As for our resident hyper-Wesleyan John, I do hope you will continue to tell the truth that you are in fact not a Calvinist of any description.
In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
"Saving faith has Christ for its object; so has a non-saving faith (John 2:23,24). Saving faith is wrought by the Holy Spirit; so also is a non-saving faith (Heb.6:4). Saving faith is produced by the Word of God; so also is a non-saving faith (Matt. 13:20,21). Saving faith will make a man prepare for the coming of the Lord; so also will a non-saving faith:" (A.W.Pink)
John UK wrote: Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV note, AFTER.....AFTER.....Got it?
John Again you try to turn the work of salvation into human effort, salvation by works???
Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted," - Question can the unregenerate "trust" in Christ?
"after that ye heard the word of truth," - Question can the unregenerate "hear" the truth?
"the gospel of your salvation:" - Question Is the Gospel the means of salvation for the unregenerate?
"in whom also after that ye believed," - Question Is Paul addressing the unregenerate? Is the unregenerate "born again" of the Spirit?
"ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" - Question are the unregenerate "sealed" - Or is it the "regenerate" who are "sealed."? It is still NOT A WORK OF HUMAN FACULTY on its own.
"for you have the testimony of the Spirit of God himself, who seals the truth of it in your hearts." "Seals give validity both to charters and to testaments; anciently, they were the principal means by which the writer of a letter could be known; and, in short, a seal distinguishes what is true and certain, from what is false and spurious. This office the apostle ascribes to the Holy Spirit, not only here, but in another part of this Epistle, (4:30)" (Calvin)