"But my question to you: Wouldn't it make more sense if the root of the olive tree was that which produces the goodness rather than that which was promised the goodness?"
It seems to me if the branches started off as only Israelites then the root of the promises must have been the Patriarchs who the promises were first offered. The covenants were planted and took root with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. I don't know what the stock would be or if it is anything other than the tree in general, but I am open to suggestions. Although I have already done so some, I just don't feel comfortable speculating where it doesn't say specifically.
Lurker wrote: 1) The means of peace with God is what the covenant is about and that in contrast to the Sinai covenant into which the Jews were placed when they were broken off (See Jer 11:6-8). Paul preached the gospel of peace. There is nothing of more worth for if we are not at peace with God, and He with us, we are under His wrath and destined for perdition. 2) But what else do you believe the root and stock of the olive tree hold for both Jew and Gentile? After all, if Gentiles are partakers of the goodness of the cultivated olive tree, we should receive exactly what the Jews would receive; not that it's owed to us but promised.
1) So you are saying that everything from sanctification, justification, and salvation is ultimately for the purpose of bringing us back into fellowship with God the Father? If I am following you correctly.
2) I believe the roots are the Patriarchs to whom the promises were first given. What do you mean by stock? Fruit or sap? Gentiles who believe will receive what Israel has been promised.
2) Okay, I get it. You are older and wiser and trying to help me formulate my arguments better. Thank you. I read Ezekiel 37 and agree Israel will have peace, but I really don't believe that is all that the promises of Israel contain. The verses itself even mentioned a covenant with Israel that promises to take away their sins when they believe.
1) No, yes, yes, I can only speculate because Peter knew they weren't tied to the Mosaic Law which was a burden?
2) The verses may not specifically mention Israel, although it does mention Gentiles in contrast to the natural branches. The whole passage is about how God is not through with Israelites and how Israel stumbled yet not to fall. How by Israel's rejection the rest of the world has been reconciled and by their acceptance of Christ the Ressurection will happen.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25â€, â€¬28â€-â€¬29
What else would the olive tree be? Care to share instead than playing games?
You'll have to take it up with God because scripture says:
For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.â€ť Romans 11:27
My absurd assurtion that the olive tree is Israel comes from:
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew... Romans 11:1â€-â€¬2
For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Romans 11:15
If natural branches were cut off resulting in Gentiles being grafted in, then when Israel is grafted back in it will result in the Second Advent and the Ressurection.
The kingdom of God was taken from those Israelites, in that they rejected their Messiah, and will be given to a future people of Israel who will believe.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Plain Old Tim from Possum Hollow...
It doesn't mean Jesus died in our place but rather He died so that we may be saved. He paid was a ransom for us. He died as a righteous man so that we would not have to. We obtain His righteousness at faith, a righteousness that is not our own. If true, penal substitution would mean Jesus absolved people from their sins making them righteous in and of themselves without a need for the righteousness of Christ.
The cultivated olive tree isn't a covenant, as Lurker said. It is Israel. To receive the blessings of the olive tree, Gentiles had to be grafted in. So as God promised to take away the sins of Israel, He will also take away the sins of the world.
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Romans 11:18â€, â€¬24
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:26â€-â€¬29
Is eternal life promised to you? If so, it is only because you were grafted into the promises of the cultivated olive tree which you are not naturally a part of. So I ask, is God done with the nation of Israel?
All I am saying is that people like yourself who is all about the sovereignty of God, to the point of fatalism, ought to know that Israel wasn't formed by the UN.
God still has a purpose for Israel, her land and her people.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. Romans 11:2â€-â€¬5
Israel killed the greatest of all prophets and there are people pleading with God against Israel, but God will keep a remnant for all Israel will be saved.