If we will speak of predestination and foreknowledge, lets try to have the proper framework for our discussion which is God doing something different in this age. Lets compare the following statements.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye (gentiles) were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ro 16:25 NOW to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 BUT NOW (The mystery) is made manifest, and BY THE SCRIPTURES of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH:
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But AFTER THAT FAITH IS COME, we are no longer un
Read the next verse! Moreover whom HE DID PREDESTINATE, THEM HE ALSO CALLED: AND WHOM HE CALLED, THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: and WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, them HE ALSO GLORIFIED (Rom 8:30)
You still did not answer my question.
One must at least consider the theme of the epistles and try to interpret the statements within that theme. The two epistles that deal with the subject of predestination are Romans, the theme of which is the gospel of God. Ro 1:1, 2:16, 15:16, 16:25 and the epistle to the Ephesians, the theme of which is the "mystery" of Christ, Ep 1:9; 3:3,4,9; 5:32; 6:19.
You will notice that the pronoun "them" is used in Ro 8:30 and because of the defimition of the gospel of God, given in a nutshell explanation in Ro 16:25,26, one must conclude the "them" is referring to the gentiles as being foreknown of God. It has nothing to do with individuals being foreknown and having been elected to be saved. Read the text. The same is true for those of Israel in 1 Pe 1:2. Which brings us to the mystery of Christ which is Jews and gentiles IN ONE BODY making up the church of Jesus Christ WHICH IS THE MYSTERY hidden from mens knowledge until it happened. Read Ep 3:6 here. God is accomplishing a pre thought out purpose in this age. see Ep 3:11.
I take that as another one of your insults JD and it better stop NOW
This is perplexing. Why would you take this as an insult? Lone wolf. That is what you call yourself. I did not name you.
It does not matter whether you think it is easy believism or not. The fact is that God says he saves them that believe. I will leave the judging of whether they believe up to God. That part is above my pay grade. Your friends, OTOH, has said you do not have faith. I believe you.
Some on here believe(maybe you too)that FOREKNOW means God knew beforehand which sinners would believe and on the basis of this knowledge He predestined them unto salvation.
Predestination has nothing to do with salvation from sin, it has to do with the "destination" of the saved, more particularly, the church of Jesus Christ. It has been predestinated to "glory". Read the text. I am amazed at men as intelligent as some of you cannot read spiritual truth.
Being conformed to the image of Christ as per Rom 8:29 is the same exact context as Ep 1. To be conformed to this image requires a glorified body. That is what Jesus Christ had after his resurrection. He was soul, Spirit and "glorified" body. This will take place at the resurrection and translation of the body.
Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Ac 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Ac 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
There is no need to doubt that the promise is the Holy Ghost.
Just is case there is any doubt, read.
Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Not to faith)
Just in case there is any doubt!
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (This agrees with Ep 1:13)
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
None of you men have a biblical confirmation that you personally are members of the elect and that God loves you and hates your neighbor. You say you are one of his elect because of your personal experience. You say sola scriptura and then point to your own righteousness without the Scriptures.
No one knows who the elect are, you say. You have no faith with which to believe, you say. Calvinistic theology defines who the elect are, you say. You are dead in your trespasses and sins and cannot respond to God, you say. God must save you so you can believe, you say. Salvation is therefore not by faith but by regeneration unto faith, you say. (You must be saved so you can believe).
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Did he say they trusted "after" they heard the word of truth?
Did he say that believing the gospel, the word of truth was the means to salvation?
Did he say they received the Spirit "after" they believed?
Did the omniscient God anticipate the error of calvinism and write such a clear and concise rebuke of it in a single verse?
Yes Lurker, my guess is that Contender is a presbyterian. You did make a comment I totally agree with:
There are far too many so called ordained ministers out there fleecing their flocks saying "Thus saith the Lord..." when He never spoke.
Like Limited atonement Total depravity Sovereign grace Unconditional election For God so loved the elect Faith is the gift of God Regeneration unto faith Predestination unto salvation Adam was the first member of the church Infant baptism Sprinkling Irresitible grace Savingly Personal election to be saved before the foundation of the world General judgment Israel is the church The church is Israel Post millennialism Amillennialism Covenant theology John 15:16 is a reference to Chosen to be saved
Please comment JD. God 'so loves' but it isn't sufficient to save 'the World' He so loved? OR God's love is 100% perfectly sufficient to save perfectly 100% of His elect? __
Your concepts of God and his person and work are terribly flawed, friend. You assume that love is not real unless there is a positive response from those to whom your love is directed. Where did you ever get this kind of notion? Another flaw you have presented is that God saves on the basis of love and that is not so. He saves on the basis of righteousness that he himself provides through the blood of his son, Jesus Christ. It is God's business to love and it is Christ's business to live a sinless lfe and die for the penalty of the sins of the whole world. If you deny that then you will have an eternity in the Lake of Fire to contemplate your error. It is our business to consider the sorry estate of unrighteousness that we are in and the consequences of our deeds and believe God when he invites whosoever will to be saved.
Everything about our salvation, God provides. He demands a perfect righteousness and he gives it to us if we will receive it by simply accepting his son. If you show up before God claiming a preferred status over other men just because of who you are, you will go to hell, I believe!
Other people seem to mention that Grace is the free gift of God. Is there a verse that clearly states this? ___
No! Grace is an attribute of God that is showcased in this present age. It is the operative principle of God, coupled with mercy and motivated by God's love for the world and his desire to save us, which IS his free gift. Ep 2:8.
He had already proven us guilty and had written a history of humanity that covered the beginning to Christ, a period of 4000 years as evidence that every single man and woman had sinned, with or without knowledge of his law, and therefore because they had violated his law and their conscienceness of right and wrong, God had pronounced them all sinners and condemned them to the second death, the lake of fire. But Jesus Christ came, lived without sin, and paid the penalty for us and in our place WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS! He died for the ungodly. He has taken away the penalty of sin for all those who will accept the pardon. His righteousness is what he is giving and what God will accept. He does not require our righteousness. He has already proven that we have none of our own. His righteousness is HIS SPIRIT and is HIS life which is given to us and I do have verses for that. Our standing before God does not depend on us!
It is my belief, based upon what the Scriptures teach, that it is wrong to tell sinners that God loves them because it is written that God hates the workers of iniquity and Esau is an example that is given. _____
The fact that God loves the world does not nullify his other perfect characteristics. He says in Ps 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. You should try hating with perfect hatred. I doubt you will get far.
God is a God of justice and this attribute does not void his character of love and mercy and grace. De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, He responds in his judgment to the DEEDS of those who hate him. Unrighteousness is defined by deeds. Hatred is defined by action. Love is defined by deeds. "For God so loved the world that he sent". However, none of the OT economies were governed by the operative principle of grace and so therefore you all must go back to OT Scripture and events to prove God's hatred.
If 95% of the world are non-elect and 5% are elect, then God's character is 95% hate and 5% love if he only loves those he elected.
The church is filled with professing Christians and there may be tares among them that include false professors, hypocrites and unsaved sinners _
Contender, How do we know you are not one of those tares? How do you know you are not? God does not love sinners, you say but if you ask the Mormons, JW's, Arminians, et al, they will say God loves them and they are God's chosen and they don't believe anything you do hardly. Most of them have never even heard the words, antinomian, pelagian, simi-palagian, and a host of other words that are designed to make you look intelligent and boost your pride.
Do you have a promise from God's word that you are for sure one of the elect that God just happens to love? If you don't you may not be elect. No, if you don't, you probably are not elect at all. The deception is very great!
Don't appear at the judgment without a specific promise to you of God's salvation. If you do, he is not obligated let you into heaven. He does all things according to his words and if he says "whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely" and you will to take of the water and remind him that he said that and you took of it, he is then obligated by his word to take you to heaven. God cannot lie.
Here are some verses whose context is the subject of eternal security in Christ. There is no need to try to make a case for the insufficientcy of the blood atonement in passages that are not dealing with it. God will send men to hell for speaking so against his Christ, I believe!
Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one (That would be Adam) many be dead (many in this case is all), much more the grace of God, and the gift (The gift is the Holy Spirit who is life) by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many (The many in this case is all).
Ro 5:19 For as by one man‚Äôs disobedience many (The many in this case is all) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (The many in this case are the ones who receive the gift) be made righteous.
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord
V 21 says nothing about a man keeping himself righteous. It says grace rules now through righteousness (of Christ).
Here is the case of the believer with the gift of the Spirit:
Ro 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I am sorry you don't have a bible that you can believe but the fact that you don't is adding terrible confusion to your understanding.
God is dealing with salvation and it's character in Romans. He is doing it in the context of a courtroom scene with God himself the holy and righteous judge of all the earth and he is judging by his standard, which is righteousness as it is expressed in his law. In his court he has found all of us guilty and has passed sentence on us. However, because he is not only a just judge he is also a loving, gracious, and merciful judge and so he himself has provided a means by which we can be pardoned WITHOUT VIOLATING HIS RIGHTEOUS CHARACTER. He would pay the penalty of our sins himself and then offer pardon to all who would just receive it. (and whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely).
He must explain in detail how he is able to do this lest he be be charged with violating his own righteousness and so we have the bible, the story of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, living without sin, experiencing death for us all, and then breaking the rule of death over us by coming up out of the grave. The penalty has been satisfied in the person of his son. Not guilty is the verdict now for all who will come to God thru Christ!
We should at least get the perspective of God on love and hate:
29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid. 30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. 31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. 32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. 33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon. 34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. 35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing. 1 And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die.
There was some intense hatred of Leah going on according to the context but I believe God when he said Leah was hated by Jacob.
There is much disagreement it seems on this doctrine but allow me to advance a thought here.
The Scriptures teach that all that are "in Adam" sin because they do not have any power against it and sin reigns as king. See Ro 5. Therefore the Scriptures says, "For as in Adam all die, even so "in Christ" all shall be made alive."
Now, the wages of sin is death we are told and men who are in Adam go to hell. So, lets reason this out a little. To be in Adam means that one is born into his family by a physical birth and we have all experienced that birth. I will assume you will accept this as true without me having to prove it.
So, lets reason this out. A person who is in Christ has been born into his family and he is the head and the birth is a spiritual birth. Now, who were born into his family? Yes, right, sinners! They were actually sinners and under the condemnation of God WHEN THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST!
Now, this is a reanonable question. If God was going to condemn them because of sin, why save them in the first place?
If by one man all who were born of him are declared sinners even though they might do some righteousness, why can't all who were born of Christ be declared righteous though they do some sins?
All those posting from the Reformed doctrinal persuasion claim to be the "elect" before the foundation of the world. They say they are different than most people on the planet. Most people, they say, are created for the purpose of being destroyed in the day of destruction and have no hope of being delivered from their preordained fate. Therefore, it is not an unreasonable request to ask them how they can be sure they are one of those so chosen to be saved. So far, those who have bothered to answer have pointed to their own righteousness and to their ability to understand Scripture (that they are elect) and to their personal walk with God as being proof. What they have not done is pointed to a place where God has told them they are elect and different and the only ones that can be saved.
I have pointed out how deceitful we are told the human heart is and that the only sure thing in this world is the word of God.
Concerning the judgment that you mentioned. May I recommend two sermons by my pastor, Travis Alltop.
The judgment of Christians is dealt with in his sermon title -
Your Day In Court
For other judgments hear-
Dividing The Judgments.
Click the little house icon beside my name and have a listen.
Now, Jille, I want to be kind here but anyone of any Christian persuasion will say the same thing. This does not tell me why you, of the many other Christians and psuedo Christians, cults or anyone else, are different. You still have not given a Bible verse that tells me you can personally know you are one of the few elect to salvation of all the earth.
When you stand before God in judgment he will want a personal testimony. What are you going to tell him?
He says this. His words not mine.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The bible must be involved in your salvation or you are not saved. The bible must tell you that you are elect to salvation. This subjective reasoning will not cut it.
Did you notice Lone Wolf? He is all over the place and some time not making any sense at all. He can not give a verse that tells him he is one of the elect or that he is regenerated.
I am not buying into this personal testimony stuff without a Scriptural promise. God and his word must be involved in your salvation., He is involved in mine. He said whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I did that. I am saved according to God's own promise and you can be too.
The Lone Wolf wrote: "unconditional salvation"??? It is unconditional election, not unconditional salvation. Election is election, salvation is salvation.
Okay, this is brand new. Unconditional election and conditional salvation? This is even more confusing. If the person who has been elected does not meet the condition for salvation, is he then not elect anymore? The question arises. Is there any scenario when an elect person could ever be lost?
The Lone Wolf wrote: The Holy Spirit is the one who brings you to savingly faith. It is evidenced by the terms I mentioned previously. However since you rejected the terms above, it is evident that you have yet reached that point of being able to come to faith in Christ savingly.
What is this new word "savingly?" I have not heard it yet. You are springing some brand new and extra biblical concepts on us here, friend.