John, the one mentioned in the post is "Historical Overview of Christmas" These other you found are preaching about the topic.
June, thanks for the excellent quotes.
Mr. Tim Pasting on Scripture doesn't change the facts you wish didn't exist about the topic. It seems you are on denial.
TQC Please, no Happy Birthday for Jesus, the one who exists from eternity and by whom all things were made. It might sound a 'nice' little dittie coming from secularised minds trying hard to sanitise a humanistic event, but this almost borders affront. Surely Christ incarnation is real, but let's not forget that he is the Son of God and in this capacity *he is one* with the Father. By allocating an age to the Son we indirectly tamper with the deity in the trinity.
Yes, clutching to many straws is what its happening, and one of these is the art of defunding an argument by discrediting the sources. Very sorry this has been the case with Hislop and now with Brian Schwertley. By no means these authors/ preachers are infalible, yet their work target real undeniable issues.
John, Brian Schwertley's lecture is found here in SA. The lecture is totally made of him reading quotes from original historical documents that date from Tertullian to the early twentieth century. As he reads quote after quote no one can rightfully charge him with inaccuracies here. The numerous documents read are there for anybody to verify as he dates them.
John UK wrote: Good morning brother, and no, not at all. What I said was, "The fact remains that Christmas is not of God's Spirit, it is from an evil spirit, even the devil himself. And I don't know of any easier way to say it." It is not as though a few of us here are oddball Christians, who lack discernment. Ahem. History shows that godly people in history actually and really, because they had the power to do so, made Christmas illegal by law. Now whether or not that itself was a Christian thing to do is debateable, but the fact remains that theologians from the past studied scripture far more than they do today, and they came to the conclusion that Christmas was not a Christian thing at all, and that it had no biblical precedent. I am quite willing to stand with these brethren, against the tide of relativism and sloppy theology which is determined to overthrow the Christian testimony in this world.
Good . This lecture brings much food for thought along the line of your comment, John,
Historical Overview of Christmas By Brian Schwertley
Unprofitable Servant wrote: ... You have been shown that the word Christmas came into existence over a hundred years before the Mass was invented. ... There is historical proof that Christians before the advent of the RCC celebrated the birth of Christ.
This is a half house premise. The origin of the church calendar comes from the second century when Christians weekly gathered on regard of any issue in Christ's life, even his circumcision merited a mass, say a convocation day. That things progressively corrupted on and on is a fact, but as SC points out, to this day the centrality of the 'Christ' mass on Christmas eve is massive in RC practice.
Through time, for every day of the year, not only for every Sunday, a saying of mass was allocated to a different saint or occasion, hence, the Christ mass or Michael mass etc...
The rest of your argument is so futile that merits no further comment. There is no way prayer, the Lord's supper, etc.. as you say can compare by no imagination to the same concept in the Roman perception. My sincere apologies.
Informative The numerous quotations amply demonstrate how the church calendar originated from the Roman church in the eyes of the Reformers, Covenanters, non Conformists, Presbyterians, Anabaptists and Waldensians.
Brother Lee, The testimony of your father, the works of God's providence and His wisdom in formating and directing his ways, faith, service, convictions, purpose, strengths, and abilities while on earth as related in the tributes of the funeral service at Greenville, rejoice the heart of the child of God in thanksgiving. May this same joy comfort and sustain you through these days of sorrow.
"... ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
"... also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard ... ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually works also in you that believe"
Beautiful service, and outstanding testimony "The memory of the just is blessed".
Brother Stephen, such a legacy of blessing the Lord allowed you to be brought up in, oveflowing to this day the church of God. "Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers." May the loins of your understanding be continually strengthened as you reconsider such precious heritage of faith, righteousness, hope and testimony, and may God preserve you all by his grace.
John UK wrote: ... if we have Christian liberty, we are free to either celebrate it or not, as the whim takes us? Not at all. The people who say that do not believe in objective truth, and if they do believe in it, they say the Bible is too vague to know for sure.
This is a semi-philosophical statement, yet it makes one think. How many vague facets of Christian living can we claim into question?
What is true (say valid) in the realm of Christian practice?
We are invited to pursue *all* things that are true, "... whatsoever things are true ... think on these things"
How much of Xmass practice is true biblical value, is the matter. Certainly, it has a religious veneer which distract many.
The church, say the corporate body of believers, is the *ground* (basis) and *pillar* (sustainer) of truth, and this, not theologically merely, but in all matters of knowledge and patterns of conduct as 1Tm3:15 declares.
"...that you may know how you ought to behave thyself (conduct) in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"
Is truth an absolute, or is it an objective value? It must be an absolute when it is not for sale, negotiation or bargaining. "Buy the truth, and sell it not"
My Own 2 cents wrote: I really wonder if my Boozw-drinkin' brethren are gonna come out, (of the closet), and say that e-cig use is OK, just so it's in MODERATION! ūüėĀ After all, Jesus didn't expressly say, "Thou Shalt Not Smoke E-Cigs". ūüėÄ [Chuckle Chuckle Chuckle] ūüėÉ
Some anticipating humour! However, let's not fright, the time will come for this too ...
Dr. Tim wrote: ... There is NO scripture telling Christians not to enjoy Christmas.
What about, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
sc wrote: "ho ho ho"...idle words historically, devil‚Äôs entry line in medieval plays
So significant, SC, thanks for this observation! __
US Sorry, but you are reading too much into the instances you mention. It is what you want to read into them that you see, not what they intent.
E.g., the child John jerking in the womb of the mother at the presence of Mary does not mean John rejoiced at the *birth* of Christ -not born yet!- but at his presence there, or at his coming at best, quite far from a personal party celebration in Xmass mode.
Or in the case of Abraham you mention, Abraham 'saw his day'. A 'day' in Scripture is a scene of history, not a particular birth-day.
It is the coming of Christ that they rejoiced in, which rejoicing is not of a birth-event like, as in the baby showers of our day.
In Scripture Christ's coming, figures as described in Ga.4:4, Jh 3:16, or 1Tm. 3:16; it is the presence of the Son being bodily manifested. This is beyond a *birth* circumstance, which is what Xmass focuses on.
This is the glorious sense: "... great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory"
Lurker wrote: About this Christmas business. It's not going to go away ... let the heathens take it over completely.
If ever Xmass had a decent or valid religious practice and context in some time past, it's materialistic side has been powerfully hijacked by secularism and its profits to the point of no return as you say.
It's perpetuation feeds and depends on the ongoing myth of the Santa guru, but needs the apeacing religious factor to navigate the compromise due to the substantial evangelical or nominal Christian contingent.
Eventually, when society has become mainly atheistic, the celebration will return to its origins of a winter solstice festival, as Easter is intensingly becoming the spring celebration of life already in many European secularized countries.
Of course, Santa will remain part of the myth as a substitute of deity, a false god that is ever-present, omniscient, a rewarder of practice and benefactor of the helpless. In short, this will remain that way because for the unbelieving the powerless Xmass babe 'cannot' render the same, or any relevant tangible 'good'.
To the true believer however, the Christ of redemption will remain what has always been, the biblical sin bearer, separated from sinners.
Contendia wrote: ... it's unfortunate that a once very important Christian country--integral to the propagation of the Reformed faith--would now harbor such ignorance of the content of Scripture, particularly that which pertains to the person of Jesus Christ as he was incarnated for our redemption. However, since Jesus was not born on Dec 25th, and Christmas was established by Rome as a missionary strategy to attract the pagan masses who didn't want to give up their pagan traditions, and God's Word prohibits His people from adopting pagan religious practices in worship of Him (see Deut 12:28-32), then its best that Jesus Christ is not recognized as the focus of the Christ-mass. It's really a winter solstice festival which yields the date of Dec 25th. Quite frankly, if one were to pursue the understanding of the desire of God to have worshippers who worship in spirit and truth, he or she would find that Christ wants out of Christmass
Thanks for your input Actually if one desired, as some wish to, to celebrate the *coming* of Christ, not the birth, along the meaning of Scriptures without the bagage of Xmass, -say lights, dinners, presents, trees,- one would end with a plain thanksgiving service, no different from any other in the year.
Dr. Tim wrote: The next time your nation goes to war, tell the soldiers to carry swords, spears, and bows and arrows. They have no scriptural warrant for using guns, tanks and aircraft. If you have a job, be sure to walk to it, or ride a camel or a donkey; you have no scriptural warrant for driving a car or taking the bus or train. If you need to relieve yourself, do NOT use a flush toilet, as you have no scriptural warrant to do so, and you are commanded instead to carry a paddle on your weapon to cover up your mess. And if you don‚Äôt have a weapon, get one; you have no scriptural warrant for being unarmed. And while I‚Äôm at it, you have no scriptural warrant for using the phrase ‚Äúscriptural warrant.‚ÄĚ Consistency, aye, that‚Äôs the ticket.
This type of satire borders ridiculous logic. Please, wise up. Only children use this kind of petty reasoning, but not mature adults. My apologies, brother.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: ... the angel said ... Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, WHICH SHALL BE FOR ALL. PEOPLE. For unto you is BORN THIS DAY in the city of David, a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord
Still this passage perse does not present an antecendent for a yearly extravagant Xmass as we know today, except in the minds of those who wish to read it that way, of course.
If looking for a verse to rejoice in at the meaning of his coming here are better ones:
"behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
"... thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high has visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace"
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Neil, read Galatians 4:4, Philippians 2:7 Hebrews 1:5,6 Paul preached about His birth also
More straw men US, or rabbit trails ... ?! Please, take a break, you are trying too hard.
The birth of Christ, though as part of the whole in the plan of redemption, is a bloodless circumstance per se, of no redemptive value when isolated. When isolated from the whole, as any other facet of his coming, say his transfiguration, his baptism, or his ascension, for instance, they stand for little or nothing. Please, make biblical sense God bless you
Adendum, The surge of Christmas came out from the early celebration of different happenings in the life of Christ. As early as the second century, the church had set days in celebration for divers events, as his transfiguration, baptism, ascension, etc.. evidence of this still remains with us to this day in the church calendar originated from that time.
Neil wrote: Christians delude themselves if they think the godless are going to heed "Reason for Season" claims. Paul preached Christ crucified (1 Cor. 1:23), not Christ born. Jesus directed His disciples to teach "all that He commanded them" (Matt. 28:20) and a Christmas holyday isn't part of this. Modern Christmas is truly a Capitalist Plot, guilt-manipulating folks into debt-financed binge shopping.
Such succinct description of the season.
Definitely the starring focus of the season is the frantic worship of Santa and all it entails, misleading a hedonistict self.
The worship of a religious Xmass lingers mainly in the mind of wishful evangelicals only, often inwardly petting good-feeling wishes for every one as a means of conscience appeasement.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: John UK, Sola Scripture??? Where exactly do we find the details about Christ‚Äôs coming and His birth? All Scripture is profitable for our edification except the ones about His birth? We don‚Äôt rejoice in all there is of Christ?
My apologies sir, but this, as most of the Xmass defending arguments here so far, are built-on-purpose straw men skirting around the irefutable facts about the matter.