pew view wrote: Therefore their "resistance" is allegorical of the pre-saved estate of all sinners. When the grace of the Lord and the Holy Spirit "draws them" eg:: John 6:37/44 - THEN natural "resistance" as it is termed is removed by God! Man cannot achieve this on his own, the natural estate of the sinner is only removed by Irresistible Grace.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things ARE OF GOD, who has reconciled US TO HIMSELF through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Now all things ARE OF GOD...reconciled US TO HIMSELF...
In other words, God has removed both the barriers that have separated us, his anger and our guilt. Both are OF GOD. To be reconciled IS TO BE SAVED. Take note, any work on our part is not part of the equation.
John UK wrote: "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets and through the written word. This passage is not talking about mans ability to resist The Holy Spirit's omnipotent power.
You three, Paegon Understanding, John UK and Michael Hranek have all just established that man apart from the spiritual work of the Holy Spirit has the human faculties to come to Christ. That is clearly PELAGIANISM! Spurgeon, Wesley and Arminias would have all called you heretics for holding such a belief.
You three exalt the human faculties of goodness and the human will, those attributes which are the weakest in sinful man, above the work of the Holy Spirit!
"This whole people, as well as this text, are fearful proofs that the Holy Spirit, the almighty energy of the living God, may be resisted and rendered of none effect. This Spirit is not sent to machines, but to human beings endued with rational souls;"
John Yurich USA wrote: Why do you state that you doubt that I will ever get married? Just because I am going to be the master of the house and the head of my wife? The Bible states that the husband is the master of the wife and the wife is subserviant to the husband.
Please provided scripture where the word "master" in terms of this relationship.
It says that You are to love your wife as Christ loved the church. It does not say anything about you bossing her around or ruling over her. You are to be a leader, not a slave driver.
All I am saying is, with the language you use, "allow" and "make her", I doubt that you will find any volunteers.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: [URL=http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/godgift.htm]]]Is faith the gift of God in Eph 2.8?[/URL]
A few things that your greek scholar left out:
In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".
The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe. In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play.
Michael Hranek wrote: Yet one thing I believe it is safe to say is that "To Persecute, Hate, Despise, Reject, Abuse" a genuine saved born again of the Holy Ghost child of God for his or her faith in Christ and love for Him imagining by this one is doing service for God is not a gift of God at all but of Satan.
There appears to be only one person who is hated, despised rejected abused and persecuted on this board let alone with those whom agree with his interpretation of the scriptures.
THAT WOULD BE JOHN CALVIN! No other saint has been ridiculed as much by anyone but by YOU Michael Hranek. Not only that, you broadbrush everyone who agrees with Calvin with a charge that we worship him.
Calvin himself is never quoted on these forums. The WCF does not even mention his name, nor do they used the words Calvinism. YOU some day will have to give account for how you have treated this saint.
You may attack the doctrines of grace, but YOU attack the saint himself.
"Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies! Who is he who condemns?
John Yurich USA wrote: That is good that the woman wants to wear skirts and dresses and not pants. When I get married I am not going to allow my wife to wear pants. I am going to make her wear skirts and dresses only. I have always thought that women should wear skirts and dresses and not pants.
WHEN you get married? When you use words like "allow" and "make her", I doubt that there ever be a "when".
John UK wrote: What a delight it is to have little tussles with you, and we must remember that the Lord loves all his little flock, the faithful remnant.
Faithful remnant? Two souls saved out of the more than 4 million who came through the Red Sea?
Romans 11:3 Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
There has always been a remnant because of God's electing grace.
2 souls out of 4 million is not a remnant. It is not even a thread.
John UK wrote: Roger, You picked a poor passage in 1 Corinthians 10 to show regeneration in the old testament. Paul was speaking about these old testament folks who 'drank from the same spiritual rock (Christ)' but all but two died under the wrath of God.
All but two? Only two people were saved that came through the Red Sea?
I was not using this passage to identify that all those who came through the Red Sea were regenerated. But this passage unites the O.T. saints to the N.T. saints of both drinking from the same Rock. Now the O.T. saints were saved physically from judgement because of Moses's faith. In other words, they were identified "in Moses" Just like all saints O.T. and N.T. are "idenitified" or "baptised" "IN CHRIST".
And even though these physical Israelites ate and drank the spiritual food and drink, as do those who are included in the physical blessing of the covenent in Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away...
John UK wrote: Are you saying the old testament saints were all born-again believers?
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country... for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude--innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were ASSURED OF THEM, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country.
These saints had the ASSURANCE that only comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
John UK wrote: Are you saying the old testament saints were all born-again believers?
If they weren't born again, they were not saved.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?" Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and ALL DRANK FROM THE SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
Isaiah 44:1 "Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, And Israel whom I have chosen. Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you: 'Fear not, O Jacob My servant; And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. For I will pour water on him who is thirsty, And floods on the dry ground; I will pour My Spirit on your descendants, And My blessing on your offspring; They will spring up among the grass Like willows by the watercourses.' One will say, 'I am the Lord's'; Another will call himself by the name of Jacob; Another will write with his hand, 'The Lord's,' And name himself by the name of Israel. "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do?
John UK wrote: where in the old testament did God teach about this?
Ezekiel 37:4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! Thus says the Lord God to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord." ' " So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them. Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live." ' " So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army. Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!' Therefore prophesy and say to them,
Mike wrote: Is there biblical evidence that the Holy spirit permanently indwelled the people of the OT in the sense we understand it in the NT?
The work of the HS in the OT is hidden just as was Christ. He appeared in diverse manners such as he did in and Joshua 5 and Judges 13.
Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat UPON each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been POURED out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who HAVE RECEIVED the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Take note that the Spirit coming UPON and being POURED OUT ON are identifed with the infilling.
John UK wrote: Besides which, how are you going to cope at the Bema when you meet thousands of people you call dummies who were assisted into understanding the Chrisian faith by this very verse of God's word?
If all of these thousands of people have placed the assurance of their salvation by understanding the Christian faith by asking Jesus into the door of their heart, apart from placing their trust in the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross, I won't have to worry about bumping into them. How many children are walking around that think they are saved because a sunday school teacher has taught them to ask Jesus into their heart.
No atonement, no salvation. An experience does not save you. A prayer to ask Jesus into your heart does not save you. An objective act of obedience on the cross saves you. Revelation 3:20 IS NOT THE GOSPEL! It is a passage of LAW. Any passage of scripture that demands obedience, IS LAW. Every passage that OFFERS and DISPENSES grace is GOSPEL.
You are still looking to the LAW to be saved. Asking Jesus into your heart is an act of LAW. Your defenition of repentence is an act of LAW.
Law, Gospel, Law, Gospel. This is "THE" problem in the church today!
John UK wrote: We'd better have a look at this text. Here is Jesus knocking on the door. We know it is a message for individuals because he uses the singular.
Yes it may be in the singular. As the warning is given to the "angel"
14 "AND TO THE ANGEL of the church of the Laodiceans"
In the old testament God spoke to Israel in the singular. But Israel in the O.T. can define, Israel the person (Jacob) or it can mean the 10 tribes, or it can mean Israel as a nation physical nation, or it can mean the Israel or God, the true church, or it can mean the true Israelite, Jesus.
I will take it as the angel or messenger of the church or "church age" in Laodicea.
Nevertheless, we do not use the highly symbolic book of Revelation to interpret the O.T. We use the O.T. to interpret the symbolic language of the Book of Revelation.
But Romans is a different matter. Paul teaches the doctrine of justification and proclaims the Gospel. The Gospel is a proclamation about what God did for us objectively on the cross. The Gospel is not inviting Jesus into your heart subjectivley.
THIS IS THE PROBLEM OF THE CHURCH TODAY! Teaching that justification is an subjective experience, not an objective work by GOD.
John UK wrote: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:19-20 KJV) Christianity is REAL LIFE, Roger, not a stroll through theological gardens.
Ah the old "Let Jesus into the door of your heart" verse. Actually this scripture refers to Jesus knocking on the door to the "church". This is not a "how to" for dummies on justification.
Yes, why can't you guys just answer the questions? We ask you simple questions about your presumed theology, and you both change the subject and start preaching to us. Sad
Michael Hranek wrote: John UK Wow! I do believe you've hit a serious "theological nail" right on the head. ...for whom "God be merciful to me, THE SINNER", was a prayer they were NOT willing to pray
If I may just butt in for a moment while you two sinners are patting each other on the back. You keep preaching to us about God's love for sinners.
Where was this LOVE from Seth to 30 A.D? If God had abandoned everyone during that time and was not regenerating unbelievers into belief, how were they saved? It appears that they were left to their own, without any hope of salvation.
What is the difference in how the Holy Spirit worked in salvation before 30 A.D. and after Pentecost?
Again, there is a strong odor of Dispensensationalism in this forum!
Mike wrote: Funny, I don't remember saying that. I do remember tossing a question out, seeking response from others. However, for the sake of argument: God needs Satan's help to bring about his plan of redemption? I was under the impression that you believed we are born in sin. A gift from Adam. Therefore what further help does Satan's existence provide that brings God glory through his plan of redemption for believers? Satan did his job long ago with Adam and Eve, right?
If Satan completed his work in the garden of Eden, what is his purpose now? Do you actually think that Satan is still hanging around because God is showing him mercy?
John UK wrote: Narrow it down? I thought the old testament spanned just 4000 years? Oh well, carry on John, let's not be put off. What was the Holy Ghost doing since Creation and the Fall? Oooooooohh, er, ummmmmm, ahemmmm. He anointed certain ones to speak to people. These are the prophets. He anointed a few people to be skilful craftsmen. These are the crafty ones. He anointed some with power, so that they could kill a thousand with a bone. These are the strong ones. He anointed some to write under direct inspiration of God. These are the scribe ones. He gave direct revelation to some, in the time of silence. These are the Simeon ones. He was instrumental in the birth of the Saviour to a virgin. This is Mary. Besides that, he spoke to false prophets through the lips of donkeys, he created a big flood, he made earthquakes, he turned back the waters of Jordan, he made the sun go backwards, he turned the hearts of kings, he brought quail into the Israelite camp..... I should think the Holy Ghost is doing something every moment of every day, even in the old testament.
Was no one saved in the O.T? Did He not bring anyone to belief? How did anyone come to faith in the O.T?