Lurker wrote:  A prooftext is scripture which explicitly teaches what is asserted;
 1) repentance, 2) baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin, 3) receive the promise of the HS
1) Blimey Lurker sounds like you live in a perfect world!! What of the "proof text" of A Papist? What of the "proof text" of a Liberal? What of the "proof text" of an Arminian? YOUR "proof text" is *YOUR* interpretation whereby you are selling us your NEW religious theory.
2) This is the same old heresy of works based - God owes the sinner - popish - Arminian etc etc ......
Lurker; God does not REWARD any mortal at any time in existance for spiritual acts which HE Himself provides in His providence for the road to salvation.
God has elected His people before the world began. God foreknows His elect. The promise of the Holy Spirit is for them - NOT BECAUSE THEY **DO** SOMETHING - but because it is God's promise, which HE knew beforehand and ordained who would receive.
The only people in history who apply your principles on this, are works based religions such as Popes and Arminians etc.
Acts 2:38 Peter preaches to (a) the elect, and (b) non-elect. The elect are regenerated BY THE SPIRIT and only then can they believe and repent.
You mean you want us to go into this all over again when you have not been able to see the truth of what I have previously posted?
Here is the simplest verse which describes the two methods of the Holy Spirit. Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Jesus words Holy Spirit method #(1) "dwelleth with" Holy Spirit method #(2) "shall be in you" (indwelling)
The promise of Jesus fulfilled at Pentecost as described at Acts 2.
Remember as I have stated before many times there is only two ways described by Jesus of being born into existence... Jn 3:6 That which is (1) born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is (2) born of the Spirit is spirit. Again #(2) Is indwelling. You are either in the flesh Or you are in the Spirit.
Flesh remember is Dead, Spiritually blind, Enmity with God, Blinded by Satan.
Spirit is - Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, = Oh look one of the FRUITS of the indwelling Spirit IS FAITH!
After all we are the TEMPLE of the Spirit 1Cor 6:19 HE *DWELLS* thereIN.
John UK wrote: Sure, at least two, maybe a multitude. How else:
So what you are saying, John, is that the indwelling of the Spirit is an intermittent event. Now you see Him, now you don't?
When He is NOT indwelling how do the elect walk and pray in the Spirit? Or is this one of your hyper Wesleyan tricks of human faculties/abilities, being equal to divine power?
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ~ Does this mean we are sometimes NOT of Christ?
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ~ Does this mean that when the Spirit is not indwelling that we are dead again in the flesh?
ps I was reading J.C.Ryle this morning (Jn 14) He was teaching on the Holy Spirit indwelling believers and said, "they were new men, new creatures, light and salt in the earth compared to the worldly BY THE INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit." ~ Does this mean that dear old JC meant that sometimes we are like the worldly - and other times are not? Depending on whether the Spirit was at home or not?
Lurker wrote: I read this much praised Solemn League and Covenant last night for the first time. .... If God was behind its enactment, surely it would have stood the test of time
But do not forget that the Solemn League and Covenant was constructed and signed to adherence by Christians, Lurker. The alternative was episcopacy as per the papists. Do you have a tendency towards the papists?
We all know your abhorence of all that has been recorded and written in ecclesiastical history by Christians for example the WCF.
Quote "To study a Christ honoring pattern for the state (which is agreeable to the Word of God) please look into the Solemn League and Covenant and the covenanted Reformation of the seventeenth century. The National Covenant of Scotland, which preceded the SL&C is also another faithful civil (and ecclesiastical) pattern. Compare these God honoring covenants (which the lawful civil authorities of the day swore before God to uphold, *nationally and internationally between the three covenanting nations*) with the godless U.S. Constitution and then tell me who it was that was truly "intensely religious." (R.Barrow SWRB)
ps: Don't forget that "success" in this world is persecution and suffering for the true Christians.
Hi John The point about Whitefield's statement is that he was not really dealing with your problem. Whereby you want the Sinner to activate salvation by his own faculty. What Pentecost brought to the church is the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit. Indwelling begins the process of the Holy Spirit's work of redemptive graces such as faith etc. Prior to the indwelling eg Born again see Jesus in John 3, the sinner is unable to receive anything of a spiritual nature and is dead in sin anyway.
G.Whitefield "Eternal truth has declared, "When he is come, he will convince the world of sin, because they believe not on me." None of us believe by nature: but after the Holy Ghost has convinced us of the sin of our natures, and the sin of our lives and duties, in order to convince us of our utter inability to save ourselves, and that we must be beholden to God, as for every thing else, so for faith (without which it is impossible to please, or be saved by Christ) he convinces us also, that we have no faith. "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" is the grand question which the Holy Ghost now puts to the soul: at the same time he works with such power and demonstration, that the soul sees and is obliged to confess that it has no faith."
I can read all those verses you have quoted and still see clearly that faith IS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT from regeneration onwards.
The WCF is Biblical in all of its confessions. Fact!!
On both of these points I agree with the Church's greatest theologians, such as Calvin, Puritans, Whitefield, Spurgeon, Westminster divines - And of course the Word of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit Himself.
Lurker wrote: Isn't it interesting, John, how the subtleties of so many texts shine through clearly when they are perceived through the lens of the organic whole of scripture?
I can see what you are trying to say here. My version would be that I agree with the Holy Spirit who, by the grace of God, is my sole guide in and of the truth of Scripture, who is the sole worker of the redemptive graces of God in His elect, and who brings the elect into the whole counsel of God. Praise be to God. Amen!
May God bring you, and John, into His Truth and counsel.
"A spiritual faith must be imparted before the Word is made, in a spiritual way, its foundation and warrant.
1. Faith In the Word: The same blessed Spirit who moved holy men of old to write the Word of God, works in the regenerate a faith which nothing can shatter. That Word is the Word of God. The stablishing argument is by the power of God‚Äôs Spirit, who causes the quickened soul to see such a Divine Majesty shining forth in the Scriptures that the heart is established in this first principle. The renewed soul is made to feel that there is such a pungency in that Word that it must be Divine. No born-again soul needs any labored argument to convince him of the Divine inspiration of the Scriptures: he has proof within himself of their Heavenly origin. Faith wrought in the heart by the power of the Spirit is that which satisfies its possessor that the Scriptures are none other than the Word of the living God." (A.W.Pink)
John UK wrote: so let us put this regeneration together with faith occurring simultaneously, and have no more of this "born again for five years before the man came to faith
You're going backwards John!!!
Regeneration IS BORN AGAIN.
Regeneration is born of the Spirit.
The INDWELLING of the Spirit.
As I have been saying all along to you and Lurker, Regeneration - Born of the Spirit - "IS" Indwelling - and when that occurs the Holy Spirit WORKS FAITH in the heart of the elect.
Thus the WCF is correct. You said it was wrong!
WCF 7/3. Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,a commonly called the covenant of grace: wherein he freely offered unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him that they may be saved,b and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life his Holy Spirit, TO MAKE THEM WILLING AND ABLE TO BELIEVE."
"Indwelling" is what Jesus promised AFTER His glorification AND what happened at Pentecost (Acts.2) AND how it works in the elect today!
As Jesus pointed out - there is only two ways "dwell with" and "dwell in"
"..but ye know him; for he **dwelleth with** you, and SHALL BE ***IN**you" John 14:17
Lurker wrote: The HS does not work independent of the gospel
Question for you Lurker; Since you have chosen to cut the Holy Spirit out of the graces of Redemption, can I ask where you think Faith actually comes from.
Are you, like John, an Arminian and believe it to be a faculty and work of man. Or is there some other means by which faith emerges in man which you believe and have not revealed to us yet?
As for your Scripture refs; Lets take just one.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
What Peter is saying here is that the Gentiles(v7) received from God His Spirit.
What YOU are then implying is that Peter was able to convince the Gentiles without divine help to hear the Word of God. Therefore what YOU are teaching is that the "dead in sin," "enemies of God," "unable to spiritually discern," "blinded by Satan" Gentiles - were somehow capable of overcoming sin and convicting themselves of sin to receive spiritual instruction to proceed unto salvation.
Lurker wrote: Calvin had this to say about Gal 3:23: "Faith denotes the full revelation of those things which
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Clearly from this verse we are taught that the faith which came with Jesus was greater light than the OT, variation. Just as clearly the faith which is wrought by the Holy Spirit is a greater light for the NT church.
"John Calvin proves especially helpful in defining faith: "Now we shall have a proper definition of faith if we say it is a steady and certain knowledge of the Divine benevolence toward us, which being founded upon the truth of the gratuitous promise in Christ is both revealed to our minds and sealed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit" (Calvin Inst 3:2:7)
Notice again the involvement of the Holy Spirit. Before the glorification of Christ the Holy Spirit "dwells with" - This does not "curtail" divine power.
After the glorification of Christ and the Pentecost, the Spirit became "indwelling" in the purpose of God, and provides Spirit empowered faith in the heart of the elect.
NO Spirit - NO faith!
Faith, a redemptive grace, is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart.
Lurker wrote: The text isn't speaking of individual faith
Whether about an individual or 7 Billion people matters not a hoot.
Faith is the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the elect, (all of them).
Lurker wrote: Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Refer to all the verses you want Lurker, the truth is the truth and the Biblical truth is that faith is the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the elect, (post Pentecost)
As for Heb 10:36 Again this is not teaching quote; "God will reward you for works done" - That is never the precept, doctrine or teaching of faith anywhere in Scripture. Similarly Peter teaches 1Pet 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." But this is NOT faith a human effort - It does describe the complete process of salvation a work of the Holy Spirit - in the sinner who is dead until made alive by the Spirit, unable to discern anything spiritually and the very enemy of God. Even "Perseverance" (TULIP) is a work of God's Spirit, therefore a work of God and Christ by the Spirit.
As John UK is taught below this is the same teaching of C.H.Spurgeon, another Biblical calvinist.
Lurker wrote: "THE PROMISE by faith of Jesus Christ MIGHT BE GIVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE" The promise of Christ, Abraham's seed, is given to believers, not unbelievers.
Good evening Lurker. "MIGHT BE GIVEN" Interesting words? Do you think that this implies that some of them "that believe" might NOT receive the promise?
However "might be given" - Is ONE Greek word a verb in the aorist tense.
"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations." (NET Bible)
Thus if the promise was in existance BEFORE FAITH::- v23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Then they received the promise of salvation prior to faith. Which means the WCF is correct.
John UK wrote: Oh yes? Tell me then how Lazarus was raised?
"Physical resurrection" John.
I'm sure that Lazarus was as good a Christian before and after.
And this does not contradict nor negate what Jesus said in John 3:6, (except perhaps in your new religious theory). Jn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Again I ask you John to explain your three part; 1. Born of the flesh. 2. Born a little bit able to do spiritual bits. 3. Born of the Spirit. (Regeneration)
Where do you get this middle birth from, John??
BTW How does your neo-religious theories explain... Jn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And. 1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Do you contradict the Lord here too?
Lurker Your back. I thought you'd gone off in a huff? See you later.
John UK wrote: Acts 5:30-32 KJV 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Ooer. What's this Peter? Salvation by DIY, works, no divine input, arminist, catholic, John & Lurker special religionist, etc. blah blah blah
Please note that in verse 32 above quoted the term "hath given" is verb in the aorist tense.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"
1. Regeneration 2. Renewing of the Holy Spirit
1. Regeneration means born again. That means born of the Spirit. 2. There is a requirement for the sinner to be renewed.
Born again = Two "borns" in John 3:6 - 1. Born of the flesh. 2. Born of the Spirit.
Note there is NO inbetween birth. Just ONE ACT of the Spirit.
In the flesh :- 1. Dead in sin. 2. Unable to spiritually discern. 3. At enmity with God. 4. Blinded by Satan.
Note Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that YE CANNOT DO THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD.
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, *AFTER* THAT THE HOLY GHOST IS COME UPON YOU: and ye shall be witnesses
"The bare letter of the NT will no more ingenerate faith in the souls of men than the letter of the OT." (J.Owen)
"As to the agent of it -- (1.) That the sole agent of it is the Holy Ghost, who uses (2.) The revealed truth of the gospel as his instrument; (3.) That the subjects of it, while they have freely resisted all those common influences of the Holy Ghost which they have experienced before regeneration, are entirely passive with respect to that special act of the Spirit it whereby they are regenerated; nevertheless, in consequence of the change wrought in them in regeneration, they obey the call, and subsequently more or less perfectly co-operate with grace.
(1.) from what the Scriptures teach concerning man's state by nature as a state of spiritual death, blindness, insensibility, and absolute inability with respect to all action spiritually good. (2.) The Scriptures distinguish between the Spirit's influence and that of the Word alone. 1 Cor. ii. 14, 15; iii. 6; 1 Thess. i. 5, 6. (3.) A spiritual influence is declared to be necessary to dispose and enable men to receive the truth. John vi. 45; Acts xvi. 14; Eph. i. 17 (7.) The Scriptures explicitly distinguish between the two calls. "Many are called, but few are chosen." "Whom he called, them he also justified." (A.A.Hodge)
John UK wrote: I tell you what, if Christ is not IN you, you have no hope of glory
Christ IS in me John!! Christ dwells in His elect BY HIS Holy Spirit. Christ Himself is in heaven!
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
John I think it only fair that you reveal this new religion you are patching together here. Is it called "SalWorks" - How to save yourself without divine input?
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God"