Here is why. God Himself determined that His justice must be satisfied. He did so at staggering cost to Himself with the death and shed blood of Christ. And He determined the terms of the gospel - repentance and faith - allowing Him to give FREELY the gift of eternal life to those who repent and believe not to any who continue unrepentant in their sins against Him.

Also it seems your reading into Ephesians new birth before faith rather than taking the verses as a discription of what has happened.

I would agree faith is not produced by our unregenerate fallen human nature

However God is quite capable of producing faith in one quite fallen and unable to save themselves (unregenerate) by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and His Word.

Then God is quite faithful to the terms of the Gospel His terms by the way (repentance and faith) to save those (unregenerate) who repent and trust Him to save them which He does causing them to be born again and to be sealed with the Holy Spirit and to know in Christ the gift of everlasting life.

Some claiming they were regenerated / born again before they had faith that they were "elect"

Others claiming they were wretched sinners (and they were) and God drew them to Himself convicting them by the Holy Spirit and His Word of their inexcusable sins against Him and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for them willingly shedding His blood for them on the cross. And now they testify when they repented and believed in Jesus, for He is alive, risen from the dead, to save them from their sins He saved them and changed them.

Quite imperfect words but hopefully enough to show there is a difference and that the so called regenerated/born again before faith "elect" don't testify of sorrow over their sins and how thankful they are to Jesus Christ that He died for them and how they were so undeserving and how they now love Him more than life itself.

Since the greatest commandment of God to love Him with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind there is something hugely amiss if a theology you claim is true hinders those holding to it from expressing love for the Lamb of God who they claim died for their sins.

Follows is what my 5 Pt "Friends" have taught me

Total Depravity – We will have the Civil Authorities burn you at the stake for heresy if you dare to question our teachings

Unconditional Election – Under no conditions will we willingly admit Yamil is right on John 3:16

Limited Atonement – Heaven is only for Elect Calvinists not “Arminians” (non-Calvinists)

Irresistible Grace – We so believe God’s grace is irresistible that we will use force to make you believe our way or we’ll use our total depravity on you

Perseverance of the Saints – We will continuly label as Arminian Heretics anyone who disagrees with us and believes "God so love the world" means world and not "elect only" and we will refuse to believe Yamil is right on John 3:16

My 5 Point "Friends" have explained it quite well to me don't you think.

Think you just might want to reconsider faith and being born again or would you think Calvin and 'friends' know more than the Holy Spirit?

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel."

And then point out Arminius did not?
Of course he didn't but then neither did Calvin. Both were sinners and both needed salvation.

Speaking of sinners have you ever heard of Saul of Tarsus?
I recall that the Holy Spirit moved him to write (oh Yes, not as Saul but as the Apostle Paul - being born again of the Holy Spirit really changes a person)

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

"which should BELIEVE ON HIM to life everlasting"

It is not written here that should be "predestined" to life everlasting

Just perhaps the Holy Spirit put more emphasis on believing that on what 'Calvinist's' imagine is predestining.

The Correct Biblical ordo salutis IAW Rom 8:29/30
is:-
1) election,
2) predestination,
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration, MAYBE ARTHUR MADE A MISSTAKE HERE IN STATING SOMETHING WHICH MEANS YOU CAN HAVE BORN AGAIN UNBELIEVERS

I had the privledge of hearing one of the inmates pour his heart out in prayer not for himself but for one of the guards who he knew was going through a difficult time.

God's love is quite different from the love of the world or any "religious" imitation of it either isn't it.

missed your last post.
I be loggin out too.

And they hate our freedom, not freedom to sin, but freedom to love Jesus Christ because He First loved us, freedom to love one another and the lost because God loves them and desires none to perish.

Yamil, before I was a Christian I was a wretch I hated people. And thinking about this subject of hate it is a terrible thing to find out someone you 'hate' is actually loved by Jesus Christ. Simon the Pharisee found out that Jesus loved a woman Simon knew to be a sinner.

Which one loved Jesus more?

Likewise with those who see themselves born again before faith (not) and elect don't seem to ever come to that deep brokeness over their sins. In there "theology" or "calvinolatry" they don't see themselves that bad because they were "predestined".

Who do I have the pleasure of replying to, Remo or Susan?

You missunderstand me. It is not God's predestination that I hate rather the counterfeit of it that poisons and cripples sincere Calvinists from telling people that God loved them while they were yet sinners deserving nothing but death and the eternal hell and sent His Only Begotten Son to provide the sacrifice whereby they could be forgiven by faith in His Blood. Therefore repent and believe the Gospel.

Going from your last comment they want us to repent and return to what the Bible says AS THEY DEFINE IT, meaning God does not love the whole world but hates it except for this predestinated elite that you cannot know you are part of unless they enlighten you through the "special knowledge" of their deceased divines.

In contrast to the "theology of Calvinism" we can find men, women, girls and boys across the world who have come to a simple child like faith to trust God that He so loved the whole world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Quote
Michael, You said,

"that is just the point the theology of 5 Point Calvinism in its definitions of election and predestination (predestinating people to hell before they were ever born supposedly for His glory) presents a view of God that violates (abrogates) that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

End of Quote

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

quote
Please don't put words in my mouth. I desire the whole world to be saved, but not my will be done but God's will be done.
end of quote

Joe, that is just the point the theology of 5 Point Calvinism in its definitions of election and predestination (predestinating people to hell before they were ever born supposedly for His glory) presents a view of God that violates (abrogates) that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Renounce your free will/arminian synergistic heresies that deny the very Word of God.

What and know the "joy" of 5 Point Calvinism?

Joe, in seriousness, you cannot and do not offer anyone the assurance that God will hear their heartbroken cry over how much they've sinned against Him and save them from their sins when they put their faith in Christ because you DON'T KNOW if they are one of the elect are not and your theology doesn't allow you to tell them The Blood of Christ was for everyone.

Renounce your belief that God so love the whole world and now believe He hates the whole world, except for a few elite theologian types who can figure out how someone can be born again before they have faith or repent?

renouce your belief sinners convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit and by the Word of God can respond to God's call in repentance and faith and be saved by God from their sins?

renounce your belief that people can come to love God and other people and apart from 5 Point Calvinism which of course doesn't believe God loves anyone but the elect.

renouce your belief that people have the right to read and study their Bibles and believe what it says apart from the approval of the experts at Geneva, Dort, Westminister, etc.

We need to remember our 5 Point "Friends" are looking at

"Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated"

in terms of their teaching on election and predestination. They have essentially divorced this verse from things such as God's perfect foreknowledge and the actions of these two brothers.

Jacob was a scoundrel who repents
and Esau was one who increased more and more in his sin.

By the way they also neglect a proper consideration of the justice of God. For example if one of my children whom I love choose to hate and torture and murder another of my children even though I love my child I would hate him in the sense I would turn him over to the authorities to hopefully receive the just punishment of murder and I would probably visit him in prison regularly (with much weeping) until the sentence was carried out and then weep some more.