When I come back I will finish my irrefutable proof of what I am saying from the scriptures that is being met with eddy fying's human philosophy without proof.

This is standard stuff here.

RTC wrote

As one who is longsuffering with the lost, and with those who don't have their theology quite right, I am not so patient with Christians who profess Christ but show little evidence of that - especially love.

Would you comment on that?
_

Yes I will. I will comment now that Love is not what you people say it is.

If a man brings poison into the room and pours it into all the glasses and I point him out and warn of the poison and so save life, could I be accused of not loving the poisoner.

They had believed through his testimony and works:

Jn 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

There would be those in the world who will believe through their testimony and works.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

One should note the future tenses. That they may be one, he prayed, indicating that though they were chosen and believed they were not one at this time. Then he prays for those who shall believe through their words. He prays that they too shall be one with the Father and the son.

Of course, this prayer can be answered only though the church of Jesus Christ which had it's beginning after the resurrection. The church of Jesus Christ is the answer to this prayer.

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus Christ cannot lose aperson he has saved. Therefore he was not speaking of those he had chosen to be saved, but those he had chosen for a particular service. One of them was not kept, but though chosen by the Lord, was lost!

These are those he was praying for in Jn 17:6-19.

Here is the first specific he prays for them

keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. V 11

With all due respect to MurrayA who seems to delight in throwing out Hebrew and Greek phases and seemingly demands (At least to me) we acknowledge his superiority in the Christian faith because of it, I would remind everyone that it has not helped some to believe a clear and unambigious revelation and prohecy of God in Ze 14 which says Jesus Christ will come back to the Mt of Olives, will conquer his enemies, set up his throne in Jersusalem and rule the world from there and require the nations of the world to observe the feasts of tabernacles.

Any scholarship that does not promote simple faith in the words of God should be avoided at all cost and any scholar that would discredit the word of God should be marked.

That would, of course, include myself!

This prayer has a historical context.

Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

This is the disciples.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Mt 15:31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

Mr 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Lu 5:26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

Lu 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Lu 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

It is imprortant to see these things because Jesus had an "earthly" ministry to the nation of Israel, who required signs, 1 Co 1:22, and he accomplished them in the world.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

This is the apostles. he sent them in Mt 10. Apostles means "ones sent forth with orders".

Having established that the finished work of our Lord was his glorifying the Father through the miracles he performed for a testimony for those to whom he was sent, that he is Christ, we can now compare V 5,6 with V 4 and derermine that earth in v 4 is synomomous with world in v 5 & 6.

I have glorified thee on the EARTH: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The earth is where he did the Father's miracles.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This prayer is for the glory that was existent in the eternal past before his emptying himself as per Ph 2:5-11.
This prayer would be answered at the resurrection when he would be glorified with the Father's own person, the Holy Spirit, read Ro 1:3 & 4 here, and then go back (out of the world) to the Father.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus;....

15....whom God hath raised from the dead;

Here is a plain statement our Lord said about himself:

Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The work in context is the miracles that he performed in the name of the Father. His miracles are all finished. (I have finished the work).

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Keep these things in mind as we look at Jn 17 and determine the meaning of the word "world".

It is already evident that Mike knows that Jesus is beginning to pray specifically for the apostles whom he has chosen.

Now, I feel as if I am wasting my time because all these calvinists that are here now are green horns in their own system and cannot even make sense from their most common proof texts. I know I will probably get edited for saying the truth but it is a fact.

It is the big boys that we need here now, the ministers and such that can make a case for their doctrines. So I think I will hold off for a while and see if anyone with credentials shows up.

DJC49 wrote
The "problem" you are having, JD, with the word *world*

I am not having a problem, I presented a problem. The world in God 3:16 is in the same context as the passage I quoted in Jn 17.

Here, let me help you see that a little bit!

7 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Any non calvinist English major will tell you that the world all 3 times means, er, uh, well,...world.

Now, listen carefully:

God said he so Loved the world that he sent his only begotten son (into the world) that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not his son to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved

Jesus said I came not to judge (As in condemn) the world, but to save the world.

Jesus prayed to the Father in Jn 17

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. (to the world = earth)

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Okay, now the question.

If the word world in Jn 3:16 means "elect", why does Jesus say he is not praying for the elect in Jn 17:9?

DJC49 wrote:
My, my, my ...
Throw this particular survey question into the garbage pail! It hasn't been "on topic" in the last few days and has degenerated into nothing more than an online food-fight.

quote wrote:
Btw JD & Mike I never read of you rebuking Yamil for stealing other peoples monikers and making them say things they didn’t say! Nor for his multiple monikers!

Tug of war wrote:
That doesn't excuse 'ugly' posts but it is interesting how many sincere calvinists have departed this forum whilst the likes of JD remain to stir things up-note his comments to you!
God be with you as you seek to honour Christ in all things.

DefenderofTruth wrote:
Are you all seminary students sharpening your skills at "defending your faith?" Or, are you just malicious?

You are talking about religion and the rest of us are talking about truth.

http://www.wayoflife.org/articles/modern.htm

You have an illustration first hand of what those who consider themselves scholars in the post by MurrayA. Any question of his opinions by someone such as myself is a personal insult to him, as you can see.

This is the attitude of the Nicolaitanes who would divide the brotherhood and disagreements would be only among the clergy and they would work out the differences and then write confessions, and cathechisms and such for the serfs like myself, who doesn't really have the sense to get out of the rain, if the truth were known. A good majority of MurrayA's comments to me have been an attempt to inform others here of how out of touch and ignorant and ill informed I am.

However, A born again Christian, with an often read KJV bible is not ill informed about the mind of God.

I think I can answer that Aidan.

It is because in 1500 years from now there will be as few or fewer scholars who will be able to read the so called original manuscripts and there will still be a controversy over which family is actually the word of God. Those scholars will be as MurrayA who takes an allegorical view to the prophetic word of scripture and when they translate into the common language, their biases will be very prominentt in their translations. This is already evident in the translation at present. If one compares the NIV and KJV, one will note that whole passages as well as verses and words are absent in the NIV. This is a bias because there are two sets of manuscripts and the NIV translators chose a different one than the KJV translators.

Translation of the scriptures cannot be turned over to men when God is not involved. There is a real devil who can translate also.

The priesthood has dominated the laity through the ages because they alone have the ability to interpret the scriptures. This is the attitude of those who have no common bible that is the authority from heaven.

It is interesting that Paul had individual conversions in mind when he said the following and not the institution.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

This is an incredible statement!

Even thogh Paul said here that he had brought them to life through the gospel and in that sense he was their father, he is not known as a church father. He is known by many titles, but church father is not one of them.

Alan H,

This is really the initals of my name and is how I am addressed day to day.
_

Did you ever notice how often the trinity is mentioned in the NT, either in a single verse or a short passage or doctrine.

A JW asked me once who raised Jesus Christ from the dead. My answer was the trinity raised him from the dead.

Jesus raised himself - Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up.

God the Father - Ga 1:1

The Holy Spirit - Ro 8:11

Ro 1:4 is an example of the trinity in one verse, Ep 4:4-6, a short passage.

The trinity is everywhere in the Scriptures EXCEPT on the cross where Jesus Christ, the son of God, paid our sin debt alone. This is where the love of God for the world was on full display and the intensity of that love was realized.

Death is separation from God and Jesus cried upon that cross as the world turned dark. "My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken me?" Peter said this about it, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree," The next phrase gives the reason, "that we, being dead to sins". Death is separation and his death separated us from our sins.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

To all!