Calvinist Understanding wrote: I was only trying to demonstrate that even using the criteria of logic alone, it makes no sense. There is no specific scripture that says faith is not a gift- there is no need because the ability to believe and trust in part of human nature. Since you are the ones claiming that it is, the onus is on you to prove it The best that you can prove using the logic of your post is that "belief and trust" in the unregenerate is misdirected. If that is your case, then you will not find me arguing against it- because clearly it is.
I will post it for Lurker. If you will referrence back to 02/02/09 you made numerous posts to the ability of the unregenerated human faculty to be able to believe the gospel apart from supernatural influences.
If I may pick at an old scab, or in other words, bring up a subject that we were discussing a few days ago, about the indwelling of Holy Spirit in the O.T. and the N.T.
The classical reformation view of the distinction between the old and the new was thus. There was no difference between the work of the Holy Spirit in regards to illuminating, quickening, regenerating the elect to trust in Christ from the old to the new.
But there are two distinctions of the Spirits work between the old and the new.
The first being the scope of His work in the old for the most part was focused upon the elect persons in the nation of Israel. Now, God makes no distinction based upon nationality.
The second being "the presence of God" In the old, God tabernacled with Israel within the confines of the tabernacle. Then when Christ came, He tabernacled among men (John 1:14). And then Juesus told the samaritan women that an hour would come when they would no longer worship God in Jerusalem (John 4:21). But now God would tabernacle with man, would be present with man at all times, not in a particular location, but within man himself. Christ's presence would reside within man through the Holy Spirit. This is why there is no referrence in the OT particular to the indwelling of the Spirit
John UK wrote: #3 You mistake God's character. God does not choose to love, He IS love, he can do none other. Hatred of men is an evidence of a sinful nature.
Hatred of men is evidence of a sinful nature?
I will actually post the verses that Don has quoted here in case you are to lazy to do as such.
Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Now, we are commanded to express love To our neighbors. Why? Because, once we understand the doctrine of election, we realize that we are no better than them. And we are to love them because they still bear the image of God in them, although it has been marred with sin. Hatred of one who is created in God's image is hatred of God. Only God has the right to hate people and it is for just reasons. Our reason is corrupt, therefore our hatred is out of corrupt reasons. And how can the pot call the kettle black? And why hast Thou made me thus?
John UK wrote: I gave you my reasons earlier, and my direct answer recently, so there is no more that I can add.
So John, if you had a disobedient child that you held out your hand in love, but he rejected it, would you hold him accountable by punishing him for eternity? All the while, still having love for him? Wouldn't you instead just put him down like you would a rabid dog? Extinguish his spirit, so there was no more agony, nor more conscience, no more life?
But then again, if you never "knew" him with love, but hated his very nature, because of his sinfulness, then eternal punishment might be warranted, in light of your holy nature, wouldn't it?
But if you still loved him, how could you punish him for eternity? The power of grace is in you hand. Some questions that must be asked John.
So, this God that loves sinners, whom He throws into hell, will not longer have pity on them? Is this how you would treat your disobedient children that you love? Throw them into eternal punishent withour possiblilty of salvation?
Just wondering how your definition of a loving God deals differently with those whom He loves, than our definition.
This does not explain your method of hermeneutics. How can you interpret these old testament passages as relating to individual salvation, and then interpret Romans 9:16-22 to relate to corporate election?
John UK wrote: God is JUST and God is LOVE. He delights not in sinners sinning or being condemned.
Oh that men would repent.....
That is right. God does not DELIGHT and does not ENJOY killing the wicked. He is not a wicked child who likes to disects rats for fun with his friends.
But all the passages that you just referrenced do not refer to the individual in regards to his spiritual salvation in the courtroom of God. All of these passages have to do with the nation of Israel living in the land and their bondage to other nations.
Why do you fellows consider these passages that relate to the nation of Israel to the individual, and then you take the passages that relate to the election of the individual in Romans 9:16-22 as the nation of Israel?
Mike wrote: They would not suffer for rejecting the gospel? What then means Christ by "if ye believe not"? Note he does not say "since ye believe not."
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Mike wrote: He loved them enough to send his only begotten Son... They buy their own tickets to hell by rejection of that love, their only hope. That's why they are accountable.
Actually, man is accountable for his rejection of the natural revelation of God through nature, and yet did not give Him thanks, and instead worshipped the created thing.
Therefore God has every right to hate the sinner, due to that alone. He does not have to wait until He throws them into hell, He does not have to wait for them to reject His Son, he does not have to wait patiently wringing His hands through the sinners life waiting for the sinner to accept Christ.
Jesus, told the Jews that they would die in their sins. They would not suffer for rejecting the Gospel. They WERE ALREADY CONDEMNED! The world was already condemned. God had given them over. They did not accept Him nor His testimony because they had already rejected the previous revelations received by God.
Another question: Did Christ die for those who had rejected God before Christ came?
John UK wrote: I thought as much. You dare not address the issue. But I will not address the issue you rightfully raised until you have answered my question. Now back to my painting. Later...
Yes we are commanded to LOVE our neighbors and our enemies. We are commanded to express love TO them, just as we command our daughter to express LOVE to her dog, not to just enjoy her dogs company. God expresses LOVE to the wicked and the righteous. He sends rain onto their crops, blesses them with the ordination of marriage and He blesses them with children.
But apart from what is left of the divine image in man that God created as "good", there is nothing left in man that merits God's attention.
BTW. Does this command of God to love our enemies and neighbors include a command that Michael Hranek love John Calvin?
Michael Hranek wrote: Or are we so BEWITCHED BY the "prophets" of John Calvin to whom, believing in, loving, and telling of Jesus Christ to lost sinners that they might be saved, isn't good enough, isn't sophisticated enough BUT THAT one must be a Calvinist? it has been said, 'want to live eternally become a Calvinist'.
Well wasn't that nice and loving. Lurker throws you a perfectly gracious blessing your way, and how do you respond? You don't that him, but go into another rant against John Calvin. What ever happened to loving your enemies? What love is this?
Tell me Michael, John UK, does God love the lost after He throws them into hell to suffer eternal torment? And how could a loving God do such a thing? Can you guys answer that question?
Mike wrote: So he hates/is angry with the elect and loves them simultaneously. Interesting.
God hates sin. And apart from being covered in the blood of the Lamb, He hate sinners.
Now take note here as I will point out again how the words hate and love are used.
Our dog is being neglected and is dying of solitude. We tell our daughter that we are going to give the dog away to someone who would love him. But she cries out that she loves him. She loves to have him around. She loves to show him off to her friends, and she loves the protection that he provides. But she doesn't take him for walks, she does not pet him, she does not feed him, nor does she clean up his droppings. She likes the thought of having him around, but she does not express love TO him.
Now god take sinful creatures whom he doesn't necessarily like, nor does He like them around, nor does He like their disobedient nature, nor is there anything else in man that He should consider him. BUT, He promised Abraham descendants as numerous as the sand on the sea. So, in order to preserve the nature of His good name, to uphold His promise to Abraham, He provides a new nature to some. The nature of His Son. So when He looks at us, He sees His Son, in whom He is well p
Mike wrote: Agreed, propitiation came with the cross.
Are you trying to affix a timeline that God works to, when in fact He stands outiside of time? To God, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, and everything in between are happening at the same time. Thus the problem with trying to establish infra or supra. It is man trying to affix a timeline along a plane. God is tanscendent of the time contraints in which we exist.
The merits of the work of the cross can not be confined to be forward looking only. It appears to of have had efficacy looking backwords to the elect as well.
God expresses love of approbation TO the elect, when electing them. It is an act of love, not because of anything of merit in them nor forseen in them, but because He wills to. But they in themselves, the nature of their character, He hates. Then, through the act of Christ's shed blood, when He comes in judgment, He passes over the elect, just as He passes over the Iraelites in judgement in Egypt, when He saw the blood on the door. He did not do this because He was "in love" with the Israelites, but He did it so that He might display His power and Glory through the judgment of the firstborn of Egypt.
Mike wrote: Whence cometh the anger of God toward his elect?
The anger of God is propitiated (satisfied) towards the elect when it is poured out onto His Son. When God turned aside His face, when the sun did not shine during the three hours of darkness, Christ endured His Fathers anger towards the elect. Therefore God's wrath is appeased, expiated (breathed out)! God can no longer get mad at those who were placed in Christ. Therefore, God can no longer demand a penalty from those in whom He died. And the sign of the resurrection is the evidence that He has accepted the payment. It is the sign of our aquittal, just as the rainbow was the sign of God's promise that He would never flood the world again. The resurrection is the sign that His Son HAS reconciled the elect, TO HIMSELF!