Allow me to make this observation:

No matter what form of church government that you decide upon between you and God to the best of your ability in understanding what He Himself shows us in Scripture

Church Leadership can point out the Universe itself is NOT A SILENT witness to the reality that God is.

They can point to the human conscience that our Creator is moral and has moral absolutes

They can point to Israel and how their survival and existence confirm that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

They can point to the Bible, which alone out of all the Books ever written on earth is the Written Word of God AND THAT IT IS TRUTH, and that in it God Himself reveals who He is, who Christ is, where men stand with Him and why and what God rightfully expects of them and how only through Jesus Christ can sinners be saved from be born again of the Holy Spirit and know in Him the gift of eternal life.

And Church Leadership can point to Jesus Christ the Faithful and True Witness, the Only Name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved.

And Church Leadership can point people to prayer and how the True and Living God does hear and answer prayer.

Please understand I am still learning but I believe a good or a useful definition of grace is this:

Grace is God's provision for our salvation and in other terms Grace is God's provision for our need.

Do you have a better definition or is this one we can work with?

Now for our friends the 'Calvinists' do you all have a different definition of grace?

But I believe that when God grants repentance it is still that we must repent. I do not believe God will repent of ours sins, transgressions, iniquities for us.

Now as to how God grants or brings a person to repentance before they are born again or even afterwards in the case of disobedience of His children, I have to believe it is by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and His Word.

Is this clear enough to let you know where I am coming from?

Don't lie and attribute words to me that I didn't say.

Quote
Translated = "Arminianism is right"
(Human power is superior)
End of Quote

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

again

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

and yet again

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If you want to say something like Calivinism is right, anything not Calvinistic is Arminian and in your opinion anything Arminian is heretical knock yourself out but do speak for yourself.

And by the way I will not debate you on Calvinism vs Arminianism as despite what you might like to foist on a non-Calvinist I do not begin to claim to be an Arminian.

And I certainly do not believe that 'Calvinism' has given us the Scriptures and are the 'authorized sole interpreters of Scripture either.'
Why that would make them like God.

But isn't that kind of thing Satan tempted Eve with in the garden that she could become like God?

God has no problem dealing personally with sinners whether they be found in the remotest jungles among heathen or even in a local "church" full of false teachings.

Preachers of Grace and Truth writes quoting Spurgeon
""....that there is no such a thing as preaching Christ and him crucified unless you preach what is now-a-days called Calvinism.""

Somehow these "Calvinists" presume themselves to be the 'Only True Christianity' reminds me of the attitude of Roman Catholics. Excuse me but didn't Jesus, who is the Way, and the Truth and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him say that if anyone "climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."

You just aint gona climb up to God through 5 Point TULIP supposedly born again before faith (not to mention repentance) Calvinism.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Cindy mentions "extremes" and I would think the theology that teaches you must be regenerated/born again before faith is one.

It reminds me of Catholicism teaching an infant is born again at baptism.

With both these false beliefs they hinder (brainwash) people from seeing their need of actually being born again of the Holy Spirit. Satan further reinforces this blindness with RELIGION since they are religious or consider themselves part of "true Christianity" and do good things or religious things the stage is set to presume they must be right and other people are wrong or just don't have their "enlightenment".

But hey if you are dogmatically wrong on being Born Again there is absolutely no way you will ever have 'balance', except God Himself intervenes and grants you repentance.

Make your calling and election sure! If you claim to be 'born again' make certain the spirit you received was not merely a religious spirit pretending to be the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice and I KNOW THEM and they FOLLOW Me.

In the Tabernacle inside the Holy of Holies was the Ark of the Covenant. In the Ark of the Covenant was the 10 Commandments written by God Himself in tablets of stone.

I would take it that to the LORD His Commandments, His Law is extremely important.

Yet on top of the Ark was the Mercyseat!

I really don't know how to spell it out better - God is Holy, the breaking of His Commandments is sin and sin is the source of all evil, suffering, misery and death - things that God who is Love must hate and things that God who is Holy cannot leave unpunished.

But the mercyseat is where (my wording will be poorly) the LORD could be both Just and Justifier of the one whose sin was covered with the Blood of an innocent sacrifice.

Therefore God who is love is quite
justified to forgive and change and save from sin forever those who believe in Jesus Christ and likewise the wrath of God abides on them who reject Christ - they will have no excuse for rejecting Him and the great love He demonstrated for them.

His shed blood is quite powerful!

I assume you are meaning Yamil? or just us you call things such as "arminian free-will almost Catholic heretics" too?

Do you not know your own "theology"?

Whatever happened to you all's belief in total inability? If we are not "predestinated / elect" according to you all's terms (that would be TULIP now) we are Totally Unable To Repent and Will Never Be Able to Repent! And if you are not "predestinated / elect" you won't be able to repent either!

So how dare you tell us to do something you think sinners are incapable of doing?

You are not going arminian on us now are you thinking sinners can do anything other than sin (unless they're "elect")

Humor aside it is quite heartbreaking that your "theology" doesn't give you the liberty to present God as He is, Good and ready to forgive and abounding in mercy to all who call upon Him.

The gift God gave is His Son Jesus Christ. He sent Him in His Sovereignity to died for our sins!

And you would find fault with us that we would appreciate that as wretched and undeserving and fully guilty deserving nothing but the wrath of God would belive in Him to save us from our sins and love Him?

Yes! God is quite Sovereign, thank you! (maybe not like some define Sovereignity) But which do you think God Himself puts more emphasis on in Scripture that He is Sovereign or that Jesus Christ died for sinners?

And you somehow imagine we give God permission to save us?

If the "Calvinists" I correspond with communicated with the love and apprciation of He who willing shed His Blood for us who are so undeserving I doubt seriously we would be arguing, as we would be concentrating on who is truly important deserving to be our first and foremost love, Jesus Christ.

Their excuse? Continually redefining Biblical terms into meaning that God does not give. Example "the world" in John 3:16 has to mean "the elect" or you are an Arminian Heretic, etc. etc.

They do react quite a bit when their false beliefs are questioned, let alone exposed.

By observation Jesus made a statement to the Jews that gives light on this "cult of Calvin".

John 5:43
I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

How does one receive Jesus Christ?
A communion waffer? No
Something God does in your life before you understand anything about it? No

How about - Repentance and Faith the terms God Himself gives of the Gospel?
Yes!

So would that mean those who harden their hearts because they do not want to be responsible to the authority of Christ to rule as God in every part of thier life and depend upon Him personally to save them from their sins do not receive Him but will receive another, "John Calvin"?

Reminds me of a Roman Catholic I knew in Knoxville, Tennessee. He was assigned to read short passages from the Bible in the Catholic Mass so to prepare for his brief public speaking he set himself to reading the Bible for himself.

A most deadly thing to do (let the read understand) which led to him asking his priest questions such as if the Bible says the bishops is to be the husband of one wife why weren't there bishops married? This of course enraged the priest (some discussion) which over time led this man to thorough reexamine his Catholicism and thorough this God led him to salvation and he became a born again believer and from what I hear is now a Baptist Evangelist.

This reminds me of our discussions of why do some claim the atonement is limited delibrately withheld for only a "elect" few when John 3:16 says "the world" and wouldn't that mean every single man, woman, girl and boy who has ever lived or ever will in all of history?

If anyone's theology falsely teaches that repentance and faith are works you would avoid them like the plague rather than Thank God! for granting them to you that you might repent and believe and be saved from your sins!

We will be off to the Wednesday activities we attend.

Anyway since so many of our friends like to bring up the Roman Catholic Religion, do they subconsciencously want to go back to Rome? The way they bring it up I wonder??????

They have reminded me that the Catholics never taught me that anyone could simply read the Bible expecting that God was quite capable to mean what He says and that He says what He means. Catholics and our 5 Point 'Friends' both seem to like to say ...."it doesn't really mean that."

John 3:16 still means what it says!

Said another way it would be quite unjust to Jesus Christ who died for sinners to

One - save anyone who continues unrepentant in their sins

Two - condemn even the most vile offender who repents and believes (abandons themself in trust that Jesus died for them, which He willingly did, when they know they didn't deserve it)