I hear this argument a lot and my answer is 'Who are we to decide who lives and who dies?' There are many difficult situations out there, and I commented about them in another thread, but just because a person is considered "inconvenient" or "unwanted" it doesn't give us the right to murder them.
The only point we have to argue about in 99% of abortion cases is at what point does life begin. If you believe, like most Christians, including myself, do, that life begins at conception then you will want to fight for this child even if his parents do not.
As to the question of other religions, would we allow the murder of innocent lives under any other name than abortion? Maybe the Tom Cruise and his boys decide children can be aborted at age 8 and under. Would we be infringing on their rights by not allowing the child to be murdered? There is no argument for that. Any sane person would call you crazy for suggesting such a thing. Yet, we have Christians that will vote for a man and the party that kills millions of unborn children at home and abroad because they are afraid their favorite government hand-out might get cut. They have more compassion for Big Bird than they do a human being. Is it any wonder that America is going downhill? Looking forward to the second coming...
@ Frank and Servant. Of course when you look at abortion soberly, then it is nothing but murder. I won't argue about it, and in fact I am on your side when looking at the broad definition of abortion. However, what happens when one of the less than 1% of victims of rape or incest does indeed become pregnant. I'm not a fan of creating fantastic scenarios, but what would happen in a case in which say a 12 yr old becomes pregnant through no fault of her own? Will we really make sure she has the baby through government mandate?
Neither of you addressed "life of the mother" which would be a real concern with a girl as young as the one in my scenario. There are other complications that could come upon an expecting mother at any age. Does the innocent baby inside of her outweigh the mother's own life? Could it be called justifiable homicide?
Trust me, I'm not trying to defend abortion in any way. I always choose my candidate based on the abortion stance of their party, but there are tough situations out there.
On a side note...Adoption rules are so strict. A person needs to make so much money and be "financially stable" to adopt. The government makes it much easier to kill a child via abortion than to adopt one.
My opinions about abortion are clear. In my eyes it is murder, pure and simple. However, if the mother was a victim of rape, incest, or if her own life were in jeopardy (often in those cases there is a good chance that both baby and mother are at real risk of dying) then we come into a tough situation.
I always say that I'm pro-choice; the father and mother make that choice when they decide to have sex. Once the baby has been conceived, then it is a living being that shouldn't be murdered. The victims of rape and incest never had a choice. This shouldn't mean the baby automatically gets aborted. Counselling the mother about the nature of her child,and providing alternatives such as adoption would go a long way to save the baby. I would bet that most mothers would ultimately keep the child, and be better off for it.
A mother who is likely to die in labor should also be able to protect herself, even if it costs her the baby. Again, in that situation the mother has a better chance of surviving versus going through with the pregnancy and losing both mother and child.
In the end, if families would raise their children the right way, it wouldn't matter how many abortion mills were in the States, because they would only be used in the rarest of circumstances.
I agree that no genuine Christian can vote for Obama. When Democrats are in office, Obama or otherwise, the "Mexico City" laws become inactive. When Republicans are in office they become active again. These laws prohibit American funds to go overseas for the purposes of training and providing personnel and services for abortions. As in America, this does not mean that abortions will stop, but it will make it more difficult to obtain one. If this results in even one child being saved, then I'll be glad to cast my vote for Romney. The types of Supreme Court Justices we are likely to get under a Republican president only solidify my choice.
As to third party candidates, there really isn't a strong one this go round so I don't expect Obama nor Romney to make any significant gain or loss due to one of these candidates. This will be a choice for the American people to make, and I think it's probably the most important election of my lifetime.
It's a very simple matter for any clergy member to "endorse" a particular party. One could show the party platforms of both the Democrats and the Republicans, and simply ask, "Which of these platforms is closer to the beliefs found in the Bible?"
I'll do it for you right now. Which party is more likely to support abortion? Which party is more likely in favor of the homosexual agenda, including gay marriage? Which party is more likely to steal money from your paycheck every week to support those who are too lazy to work...as well as fund abortion mills?
As a Christian you shouldn't vote for members of that party.
For the most part I agree with what Romney says in that clip. He is basically saying that there are 47% of Americans that will vote with Obama no matter what he says or does. Many of those people want Obama to remain in office because he, and most other democrats, do support giving more government handouts through welfare and other programs. There is no reason for Romney to even try to change the minds of these people. He instead wants to focus on the 10% of true independents in the center. If he can sway them he may end up with enough votes to defeat Obama. There is nothing wrong with that strategy. If you support freedom then you should be in favor of that strategy. If you want socialism and wealth redistribution, then you should support Obama.
I won't tell a lie, if I were on the receiving end of the hand outs, maybe I would want to keep "the one" in office too. I think it's odd that so many people in the media focus on this and Clint Eastwood's "empty chair" speech while Obama's foreign policy of acquiescence has made us worse off than we've been in decades.
@Barry from KY and others... I do "get" what you are saying. Until we change the hearts of the individual, here is one novel idea--teaching abstinence until marriage for instance--, we will still have abortions in this country even if they do become illegal again. If Romney/Ryan do manage to overcome the One this year there will no doubt still be abortions, but they will be harder to get. My contention is that if there is even one less abortion under Romney/Ryan then they are worthy of my vote. I further argue that when the Democrats are in office, our tax dollars are used to fund overseas abortions. I'll pull a Biden and say "fact check me". When Bush was in office there were in fact (potentially) less abortions due to the fact that our tax dollars did not fund them.
I "get" that both parties are evil, but I'll choose the lesser evil every time. The Republicans official platform is pro-life and the Democrats official platform is pro-death. I'll never vote Democrat because of this.
I agree. The USA is a two party system and that's all there is to it. If you want to vote your conscience, then go ahead and stay home or vote for a third party candidate, but know full well that you are in effect voting a second term for Obama.
Obama/Biden = More abortions Romney/Ryan = Less abortions
Obma/Biden= More abortion Romney/Ryan= Less abortion
Romney's past may not look so good, but you can say that for a lot of people. If he is supporting the Republican platform then, on paper at least, he is against abortion. Ryan is clearly pro-life and a much better candidate than Biden.
On the other side, the Democratic platform is pro-abortion. Obama or Biden may or may not be for abortion personally, but if they follow their party, and by extension those voters who support the party, then they are pro-abortion.
I do agree that a nation gets the king that they deserve. I hope that America deserves better, but then again they voted for Bammmy in 2008, so what do I know?
If everyone who calls himself a Christian voted against this Obamanation, there is no way that he would get re-elected. There is a disconnect between what many say they believe and what they do when it comes to election day. Romney/Ryan = Less Abortion. Obama/Biden = More Abortion. I can not comprehend how Obama can get elected in an often called "Christian" Nation.
Even if one puts the abortion issue to the side, the Obmanation administration has not done a very good job of running the country, and still Christians will vote for this guy. I think the Devil could show up looking like Tim Curry from the old 'Legend' movie and the American people would elect him as long as he could spin it that the economy is improving.
This is why I will always be voting Republican. I know that both parties are corrupt and that GOP certainly doesn't stand for God's Own Party what with all these 'log cabin' Republicans and whatnot running around, but the simple fact is that if there is a Republican in office then it's harder to obtain an abortion. When there is a Republican in office we do not use our tax dollars to help fund overseas abortions. When a Republican is in office there is a better chance across the board for these innocent babies to be born. If only one abortion is stopped due to the policies of Romney/Ryan then I will feel beyond justified in casting my vote for them even if I had to hold my nose while doing so.
Third party candidates are not strong enough to win. A vote for an independent is a vote for Obama. If you don't vote, you are voting for Obama. It is beyond my comprehension how any Christian would through action or inaction contribute to Obama returning to office. All other issues should be off the table based on his abortion stance alone.
That verse fits my feelings on Obama perfectly. I hope that he lives a long and happy retired life beginning in January 2013. However, the secret service does have an obligation to look into the situation to make sure there is no physical threat being made against the president.
edited to add..in the context of verse 9...well, I don't feel that way about ol' Barry. I want him to have a nice, long happy retirement.
For this election voting independent is voting Obama. Those of us who want change will either be voting for Romney or for an independent candidate, thus somewhat splitting the vote, while those who want Bammy to get a second term will vote for him in mass.
There really isn't a strong third party candidate this time, but Clinton's second term shows that a strong third party candidate can't win the election, but he can spoil the election for someone else. I'm going to hold my nose, send in my absentee vote for Romney and hope for the best. If Romney wins I'll come back to the States, if not it's going to be another long four years overseas for me.
When we look at things soberly, the baby inside of a victim of rape or incest is just as innocent and just as much a viable human life as any other unborn child that has been conceived. However, women who do face this situation didn't bring the pregnancy on themselves. They never had a say in the matter, so it's a hard thing to "force" them to have the child. I would suggest lots of prayer and good Christian counselling for these victims and their families, so that they can overcome the pain and make the right choice. Even if they ultimately choose to give the baby up for adoption it is a better thing than taking the baby's life.
As for Akin's comment, I believe he didn't articulate himself very well.I do think I understood the point he wanted to make. I think some of his facts might be wrong and that he was speaking in generalities on a subject that is very sensitive. The Dems are all too quick to jump on this as an "issue" because Bammy isn't doing so hot.
Pregnancies due to rape or incest are relatively rare. They are special cases that must be dealt with with sensitivity and understanding on an individual basis.The bigger problem in this country is that millions of babies are murdered that are not the product of rape or incest. A Christian should not vote for Obama.
What do you expect from a bunch of fools? They, if any of them have been approached by the Holy Spirit and KNOW the truth, are committing the unforgivable sin, and indeed Christ's sacrifice as Savior is 'useless' to them.
First thing is this guy is barking up the wrong tree harassing a front-line employee. He is annoying and trying to make himself look like he's a great guy. That he ended up getting fired is probably just desserts. Number 2, I love taking pictures and documenting all the things that I do on FB, youtube and other sites when it's my choice to do so, but it is terrible when you could be on camera and posted on one of these sites without permission by any Tom, Dick, or Harry with a cellphone. It's plain scary.
Finally, although the guy is arrogant, annoying and a real punk, he didn't exactly berate the girl all that badly. I have seen and been on the receiving end of worse. Generally speaking, Americans are getting more rude all the time. What was this guy's agenda in doing this? He wanted a few seconds of fame and then lost his job for it. He'll probably spin it in his own mind that he is some kind of a martyr against hate when in reality he's just a jerk that could have kept his job had he just kept his mouth shut and stayed home.