You could of clarified a lot sooner. If that is what you believe than why on earth would you even feel the need to pretend Jesus suffered eternal death for you and who knows how many others? Believing that while knowing He arose again just three days later instead? Itâs craziness and nonsensical, not to mention unbiblical. Maybe according to some hymns, but so what?
Godâs wrath is appeased in us who believe because Christ has not sinned. When a believer is placed in Christ, they have not sinned either. Itâs not that their sins need to be placed on a fall guy in Jesus Christ, but that their sins are erased. There is no need to punish sins that donât exist in Jesus Christ. He alone is righteous and those who believe are clothed with His righteousness and not a righteousness of our own. Having Jesus burn in the lake of fire for eternity would accomplish nothing.
I wonât suffer for my sins because I am clothed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
âAfter these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
...âThese are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.â ââRevelationâŹ â7:9, 14âŹ
Now letâs look at what you want to be clothed with.
âBut we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.â ââIsaiahâŹ â64:6âŹ
Your own filthy rags! If you are depending on Jesus having somehow suffered the penalty for your individual sins to save you, that still would not make you righteous. It would just mean someone else was unjustly punished for you. You would still be guilty if that was the case.
You guys need to stop getting your theology from hymns!
God made promises to the seed of Abraham. He has not forgotten or gave up on Israel!
I agree with what you say about Jesus paid the penalty for our sin in dying physically.
âAnd as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.â ââHebrewsâŹ â9:27-28âŹ
I didnât even need an old fashion hymn to tell me what to believe, I found it in Scripture! Though I do like some hymns. However, that isnât all that is meant by a penal substitutionary death. Rather, Jesus has done away with our sins by dying Himself as the perfect sacrifice. Meaning He alone was innocent of the penalty of sin and alone worthy to be resurrected from the dead as a result. So what has that got to do with us? When we are placed in Christ through baptism, we have then died with Him and will be raised with Him because of Him and not because of us having our sins penalized in Him. Havenât you heard? Pastor Johnny is leaving!
âThe soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.â ââEzekielâŹ â18:20âŹ
It would not be just to impute sin to an innocent party. We must suffer the penalty of our own sins. Nobody can do it for us. Thatâs why we need forgiveness in Christ, so we donât have to suffer the consequence of Godâs justice and wrath which we deserve.
That wasnât a good response because the wrath talked about was temporary as opposed to eternal, not toward believers, and nothing about Jesus. As I mentioned before, Jesus died to include us in His death and have our sins forgiven. Not to pay the penalty for each of our individual sins. How would that have brought reconciliation? We would still be guilty while Jesus would have took the punishment for our sins unjustly because Jesus wasnât guilty!
âFor if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,â ââRomansâŹ â6:5âŹ â
We who believe were united into His death, if He is resurrected so will we be, but that also means if He received the outpouring of Godâs wrath on Him, so will we. Isnât going to happen because He did not!
âFor He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.â ââII CorinthiansâŹ â5:21âŹ
We become the righteousness of God in Him because Jesus is righteous. Not because Jesus suffered Godâs wrath for us. If you committed a murder and they sent me to jail for it, would that be just? Furthermore, would that make you innocent? Of course not!
I didnât miss that you said there is a future wrath. I also believe that. The problem is there is no evidence that Jesus received wrath in some penal substitutionary way.
âFor the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;â ââII CorinthiansâŹ â5:14âŹ
The death of Jesus wasnât such that we no longer suffer death because He died in our place as a penal substitute. Jesus actually died to include us into His death! Salvation is all about Jesus and what He is. It wasnât Him paying off our sins through punishment, it was Him having our sins erased. The cross wasnât about Godâs wrath, but rather His Love and mercy.
âAnd you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.â ââI JohnâŹ â3:5âŹ
âIn Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His graceâ ââEphesiansâŹ â1:7âŹ
Our forgiveness is dependent on being placed in Him. It is not because Jesus received the penalty of eternal death for us. That still would mean we are guilty before God and Jesus would still be spending a countless amount of eternal damnations in Hell. He wouldnât even have been raised three days later! We would never have a hope of a resurrectio
If pretending you had any legitimate answers in the past and evading the questions now makes you able to sleep at night, then okay fine.
Iâm talking about the future day of Godâs wrath.
âFor the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.â ââJobâŹ â21:30âŹ
âBut in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,â ââRomansâŹ â2:5âŹ
âFor the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?ââ ââRevelationâŹ â6:17âŹ
So you see there is a future day of Godâs wrath? In all of those examples you give you still didnât show that Jesus suffered Godâs wrath and punishment for each of our sins in some kind of penal substitutionary death.
I asked you to show proof that Jesus paid off all of your individual sins at the cross as if to suffer the eternal death you deserve. You cannot! I have showed you that Godâs wrath is still future and hasnât happened yet and that payment for crimes committed doesnât erase the fact that those crimes were committed. Therefore, you would remain guilty of them and still in need of a righteousness not your own.
Why do you believe faith is a work? Thatâs not what the Bible tells us! You tell me a sinner cannot save themself. However, I have posted a few examples here of people asking what they can do to be saved and are told to repent and believe. Asking for salvation doesnât merit your salvation. If you do what God expects of you, you donât deserve a reward for it! Faith doesnât pay off your sins or make you righteous in any way apart from God then granting you salvation in Christ. A sinner must believe in Jesus in order to be saved. That is what they must do!
Even Jesus said He didnât come to judge the world but that the world through Him might be saved. Jesus is God! You have God judging the world in Jesus by pouring out His wrath on Him, but Jesus didnât come for that.
âFor if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.â ââRomansâŹ â5:10âŹ
The death of Jesus reconciles ius to God because in Him we have paid the penalty of sin which is death. The soul who sins will die. However, we are now saved by His life. He is Righteous and alone worthy to be raised. However, in Him we can look forward to also being raised on account of His righteousness and not our own. You are thinking you are somehow righteous because Jesus suffered the consequences of your sin. That is just a payment and wouldnât reconcile you to Him!
Everything you said was correct except the part about God pouring out His wrath on Jesus. You must think because your sins were supposedly punished for that you are then righteous and clear on your own account. All that would make you is a unrighteous person who had his penalties paid for but who still isnât worthy of salvation!
âand be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;â ââPhilippiansâŹ â3:9âŹ
You are in no way righteous because God supposedly poured out His wrath on the wrong person in Jesus Christ.
Salvation is of the Lord. However, we are saved by faith.
âknowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.â ââGalatiansâŹ â2:16âŹ
Faith therefore is not a work and those who put their trust in Christ are not performing a work which merits salvation from God.
âthrough whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.â ââRomansâŹ â5:2âŹ
There isnât even access to the grace which saves apart from first believing.
âAnd he brought them out and said, âSirs, what must I do to be saved?â So they said, âBelieve on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.ââ ââActsâŹ â16:30-31
âBut sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;â ââI PeterâŹ â3:15âŹ
âAnd you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: âMy son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.â If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.â ââHebrewsâŹ â12:5-8âŹ
If God disciplines those He loves than Jesus obviously didnât suffer all our punishments at the cross as a penal punishment would dictate. We wouldnât get disciplined because Jesus already would have for us.
Then it should be easy for those broadcasters to demonstrate that baptism is just an ordinance like the Lordâs Supper ( Do this in remembrance of me.). Baptism is in fact far greater than an ordinance. Scripture doesnât say, repent and partake of the Lordâs Supper for the remission of your sins. It does about baptism.
Nobody is diminishing the death of Jesus here. Without it no one would be saved! If anything it shows our complete dependence on Christ for our salvation. Jesus didnât erase our sins as if we donât need anything from Him now. Our sins are forgiven in Christ who alone is Righteous. When we are placed in Him through the Holy Spirit, we are made righteous because He is righteous. We depend on His righteousness for our righteousness. We are not righteous because the penalty for our sins were all paid for. That, in fact, would mean we are still unrighteous, but the penalty is just taken care of.
You guys are missing the obvious point. If the day of Godâs wrath hasnât happened yet, then God hadnât poured out His wrath on Jesus because God would have had to pour it out on Jesus as a penalty for our sins in order for Jesus to be a penal substitute. The day Jesus died would have in fact been called a day of Godâs wrath! It was not, therefore Jesus didnât receive the penalty of all our individual sins. Jesus didnât come to judge the world, but that through Him they might be saved. All who donât believe stand condemned already, but God hasnât yet poured out His wrath. Jesus suffered death and separation from the Father so that He would be the propitiation for the sins of the world.
By the way, Godâs wrath has not yet beeen poured out on this world. He certainly didnât pour out His wrath on Jesus Christ at the cross.
âAnd at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, âEloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?â which is translated, âMy God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?ââ ââMarkâŹ â15:34âŹ
It was the opposite. The Father turned His back on the Son.
Iâve always considered the pigs to be those have had plenty of opportunity to hear the gospel, but are belligerent and argumentative about it. You canât force people to believe, so you have to eventually stop. These people by all accounts never believe.
It wouldnât have mattered what Jesus did for you on the cross if you hadnât responded in faith. So it does matter what people do also. You did get saved by something you did. You believed! That faith isnât a work which merits salvation, but it is then that God will grant you salvation in Christ.
âAnd he brought them out and said, âSirs, what must I do to be saved?â So they said, âBelieve on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.ââ ââActsâŹ â16:30-31âŹ
âThen they said to Him, âWhat shall we do, that we may work the works of God?â Jesus answered and said to them, âThis is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.ââ ââJohnâŹ â6:28-29âŹ
âNow when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, âMen and brethren, what shall we do?â Then Peter said to them, âRepent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.â ââActsâŹ â2:37-38âŹ