Connor7 wrote: Wow! I'm sure John Calvin, Martin Luther, Theador Baza, John Owen, John Knox, John Bunyan, William Carrey, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, David Brainerd, Van Til, Martin Loyd Jones, R.C. Sproul, and St. Paul would find it very interesting that Calvinism is a false and Satanic Doctrine.
John UK wrote: Dr Tim, bless him, still has a phone with a dial; he's even got a sun dial in the back garden to tell the time.
Poor soul gets real confused on cloudy days. On that account, he jist looks at his arm to see what his tan's doin'. Sometimes tho, his arm is too dirty to see the tan, so he ends up at his appointments way to early. Kinda embarrassin'!
ladybug wrote: Ephesians 2:8-9 was not written by John Calvin. Not falling into his trap, rather, correcting a grievous error that others here on this forum and throughout the world hold to and defend....free will. As for J.Y., may God have mercy.
That's important yes. But I truly believe John throws out these gems to get everyone on this forum riled up. It's best to ignore him.
John Yurich USA wrote: ladybug, The Calvinist doctrine of election is false. The doctrine of election that my Baptist Church believes in states that the Holy Spirit prompts individuals to receive salvation and that the individual can choose to receive salvation by trusting in Jesus alone for salvation and as their Lord and Savior or the individual can choose not to receive salvation. It is all up to the Holy Spirit to prompt individuals to receive salvation. NeedHim, Look up the website for my Baptist Church at rolchastings.org and look up the Statement of Faith where it states their doctrinal position on salvation and you will find out that it is biblical. Pastor Steve preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation every Sunday in his sermon.
Everyone is falling into "JohnY's" trap again. Leave him alone or direct your comments to everyone in general. You are butting your heads up against a granite wall with him.
John UK wrote: That's very kind of you to say so, Watcher. And thanks for the chat. We are both thinking men, and God will show us more and more if we focus on him, not on things on the earth. However, if one day you are convinced God wants you to hire non-Christian babysitters, you might consider that it could be the devil telling you to do that.
Oh dear, please don't cross that bridge yet! Yikes! Yes, God does compel us to make decisions that can bring us harm as well. There was a family in the States called the Eshes. They were biblically saved and sang wonderful music. Well, on the highway one morning, a long haul truck swerved into their lane and killed everyone (the entire family) except for two babies whom they had adopted. People look at that and say that God can't be in control to allow that to happen, but He did. Why? For His glory of course, and that's all that should matter to us. We have had many near misses on our highway, driving to and from work, but God has been in control of it all. This is why we are told to count it ALL JOY when we are tempted, tried and tested. Because it brings us closer to imitating Jesus Christ or it allows us to exit this horrible world and go onto our rest.
You said: The first is your comment that although you believe God is in absolute control, being sovereign over all lives, including the lost, yet you would not hire babysitters, for fear they might make some mischief. This is what prompted me to question your understanding of God's sovereignty.
My understanding of God's sovereignty is as complete as it can be until God opens my eyes to more truth. Now that being said, my comment regarding babysitters means I have a responsibility to protect my children (given to me by God). My not wanting to hire out my children's welfare to anyone is not taking away God's sovereignty, but my being a good parent. If God desires for us to hire a babysitter one day for some strange reason, then I will have no choice but to submit to that.
You said: However, he is committed to causing us to grow-he is an husbandman. And that process can be quite unpleasant. It is up to us to ensure we abide in the Vine, which requires a disciplined life of prayer and Bible study and serving the Lord.
Indeed it is. And it's supposed to be. We are to submit and thank Him for the trails and trouble we endure. To be conformed into Christ means us being eventually crushed.
Hello John. I have a hard time just like everyone else. I complain about the weather, gas prices and my arthritis. Then I am brought back to the reality that God controls all of this. Yes I sin, many times a day. Does God control my sin and cause me to sin? James says no. BUT...God being sovereign is on control of my actions and uses my sin for His glory and my best interest. It's a delicate balance and Isa 45.7 tells us that He is indeed in control of the good AND the evil. Some will say the word evil means calamity. Well, what does calamity mean? Not much difference.
I use the illustration of a wheel. The hub is God's sovereignty. Everything stems out from there. It has to. Everything is dependent upon the sovereignty of God to exist (Col. 1 and John 1). Romans 9 tells us that He has created two groups of people. Vessels of wrath and vessels of life. Vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. Those destined for damnation and those destined for salvation.
The reason I mentioned free will is because whenever this subject comes up, inevitably free will is defended, so I jumped to that conclusion, sorry.
The Bible is full of examples of God controlling mankind. God has to be sovereign, or someone else is.
Not the same wrote: Let‚Äôs not make God‚Äôs sovereignty what it isn‚Äôt. You are the one that brought up ‚Äúfree will‚ÄĚ, not I. No time now to elaborate please bear with me for now and not jump to conclusions
That is fine, but in my experience, one either believes in the complete sovereignty of God or a hybrid where man has some say.
Whether we are obedient or rebellious against God, we always follow His plan. God is not hampered by us in any way. Please read Proverbs 16, Isa. 45 and Romans 9 and see how God controls the affairs of mankind and is in no way controlled by us. He is not a spectator nor is He an absent-minded monster. He is a loving and powerful God who destines some to salvation and most to hell. Our human minds rebel against this because it seems unfair, but He is holy and His motives and ways are perfect.
‚Äú‚Ä¶the Lord is not confined to any one method, but has a variety of ways in bringing the same end to pass. God sometimes works one way and sometimes another, employing this means today and that tomorrow, in accomplishing His counsels. God is sovereign and acts not according to rule and rote. He ever acts according to His own good pleasure, and this He does in order to display His all-sufficiency, to exhibit His manifold wisdom, and to demonstrate the greatness of His power. God is not tied and if He closes one door He can easily open another.‚ÄĚ ‚ÄďA.W. Pink ‚ÄúThe Life of Elijah‚ÄĚ p. 49
Let's be careful not to limit God's sovereignty so that the so called human "free will" has more room to wriggle.
Read Proverbs 16 as I said before. It shows us that God controls our words, thoughts and actions. Regardless how much a person wants to imply that man has a free will (that's what it always boils down to), God is sovereign and man is a vessel for His use.
God allows us to see whatever He wants us to. Whether it be for someone's safety or just an opportunity to say, "Praise God!". He is in control (Isa 45).
I have had dejavus so strong that I can remember driving down the same road and having a conversation with my wife and I say, "this is going to happen next", and it does. It is amazing. Just wish I knew what it was all about. Perhaps we are getting a glimpse into God's omnipresence? I don't know. But what matter to me is how God has my entire existence planned out even before the universe was created. That's peace and comfort for you.
Anne wrote: Been Watching, amen! When my days seem full of turmoil and pain (my mother is in a slow fade to her eternity & my father is watching his bride deteriorate slowly), my Dad told me -"I have to remember, that with God, we are already seated at His table feasting and praising Him." I can only contemplate that eternity I have not bodily reached yet; but I can see God has already walked the path for me, walked with me, carries me, and pushes me from behind. I'm there with Him, only by His amazing grace, and not an iota of my own doing or else I would be utterly lost!
Amen and amen. When one of us dies, they don't sit at the gates of heaven and wait for us to catch up. We all enter into eternity together. What comfort! Yes it is hard to pine away the years until our redemption, but our comfort comes from knowing that God has planned the way, powers our steps and is there waiting for us in the end. Past, present and future is all taken care of.
Question Christopher and Anne...have you ever had what we call a dejavu? Could this be one of those glimpses? I have always wondered what those are, biblically speaking. Any thoughts?
Anne wrote: ...and that while time exists for us, God our Father lives in the past, present & future, all at the same instant - time is not for Him and He has zero constraints therein. Absolutley blows the mind how awesome He is! Truly, we will spend eternity contemplating the meaning, depth, breadth and wonder of "I Am". And we won't be able to touch the deepness in all of eternity. What's left for us but to be awestruck!
exactly! Awesome to hear others talk about this. God laid this truth upon me years ago, and I haven't heard it from anyone else until today. This is why I say to my children, we will all end up at the judgment seat of Christ at the same time because God exists in the now. Just like heaven and hell exist in the now, that's how we can explain forever. Otherwise, forever just doesn't make sense.
Christopher000 wrote: Thanks Watcher, Anne, and John. Interesting illustration as well. One thing I'll do from time to time, is to take a good look around. Then, I'll imagine myself rising up slowly into the atmosphere while watching the Earth get smaller and smaller. Once all I see is a planet with its distinguishable country outlines, and it's billions of inhabitants, who I can't even see, but imagine as specks in chaos, mindlessly going about their days business, I wonder, how is it possible that He's in full control, sees, and knows me (us) so intimately from way up here somewhere?...
Amen again! Imagine the Bible saying that He knows the end from the beginning? He has gone to the end and planned backwards (as it were). There is not one soul alive today or who has been alive that did not follow His will perfectly without deviation. Every molecule, atom and tear falls exactly where He ordains. Phenomenal to think about!
@JohnUK...thanks for the thoughts. We are always in God's will, one way or the other. God's will is never supported or stymied through our obedience or disobedience. It is always on course, always moving forward toward His ends. Everyone one of us are on His leash and He lets it out a little or much depending on His plans. We are always His pottery and He is always the Potter. That never changes even when we are sinning up a storm.
Anne wrote: Encouraging words and wonderful illustrations, gentlemen! What a joy to be in the hands of a good and just God who absolutley controls all things. As His child then, my burdens I can freely lay down and confess my guilt, shame, ugliness and utter lack of strength because I serve one who will over-come it for me, yet through me. Christopher was so right: "God is amazing." The day our breath isn't caught just thinking of that, would be a sad day indeed!
Isn't that the beauty of being a Christian then? No matter our weakness and failing, we find grace and compassion. We can trust and rest in God's sovereignty because we know He has all things under His control. No striving against destiny. Only trusting in the singular work of Jesus Christ. Awesome stuff!
NeedHim wrote: Frank; My Baptist Pastor said I was saved because I bowed my head, said the prayer, raised my hand, put the date in my Bible & said I was a Republican to. The couple who play double duty at My Baptist Church & who attend the Catholic Church can confirm that, lol.