A72: Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit  and word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.
John UK wrote: 1) In Acts 2:38, when Peter was preaching, God was enlightening, bringing to spiritual life ...... 2) ye shall receive the Holy Ghost [to indwell you
Oh John; For a while there I thought you were on the right track at last. But here you are back down ye ole plug ole again. What am I going to do with you??
1) Here you are trying again to establish God working independantly of the Holy Spirit. Tell me why do you think that God sent His Spirit down amongst us in the first place whether OT or NT times? It appears to be your neo-religious theory that God goes in first then sends the Spirit in later!!
Lurker on the other hand seems to be trying to prove that the "Word" is a power on its own WITHOUT the Holy Spirit!
2) Again you have turned back to REWARD BASED redemption. Viz: "If you do this - God will save you"
Exclusion of the Holy Spirit appears to be your whole intention! WHY?
Indwelling is not a response by God to man's "good" works. Thats you flogging hyperWesleyan theory again. God owes the sinner nothing! From the outset God's entire salvation is unmerited - not deserved in any way by man.
Christ crucified is the ONLY Redeemer God accepts.
John UK wrote: 1) But the INDWELLING of the corporate body by the Spirit presupposes the resurrection.
2) The Spirit helps us to obey Jesus commandments (vs. 15) where the righteous demands of the law are met for those who walk according to the Spirit
1) Presuppose means takes for granted. Thus indwelling takes for granted the resurrection THAT WE ARE SAVED. Obviously this is true but not the point of the debate thus far. However resurrection of the church is obviously part of the promise which is carried by the Holy Spirit when HE indwells the Church/the disciple.
2) The indwelling Spirit helps us to obey, - Exactly what the WCF is teaching - therefore this proves what I have been saying all along, that the Holy Spirit indwells at calling/regeneration to work faith and repentance in an otherwise dead sinner.
Born again = synonymous with = regeneration = synonymous with = indwelling.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but IN THE SPIRIT, if so be that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE OF HIS.
Thus you are not born again if the Spirit is not indwelling you.
John UK wrote: 1) the saints of the OT enjoyed regeneration but may not have enjoyed indwelling to the extent that we do.
2) Regeneration and indwelling are not exactly the same
John and Lurker; 1) You musn't suggest that the power of God and the Holy Spirit was weaker and less in the Old Testament. God's, Christ's and The Holy Spirit's power are no different today in OT or NT times, they are eternally consistent and divine and the same. So just to prove these new theories of yours you shouldn't imply that holy and divine power changes in this generation and in that. God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are and always have been omnipotent, and equally so in their dealings with creation and mankind. You do understand the complete harmony within the Trinity don't you?
2) Jn 7.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET GIVEN; because that Jesus was NOT YET GLORIFIED)
Regeneration means born again viz BORN OF THE SPIRIT. The new operation of the Spirit (POST GLORIFICATION) as taught in Rom 8:9 is INDWELLING. If the Spirit is not INDWELLING in you then you don't belong to Christ. This was never meant to nor did it diminish the Spirit's work in OT times.
Clearly Jesus Himself separates the dwelling with - and the indwelling, just as Scripture does. The dividing point between them is the glorification of Christ.
Acts 2 Pentecost is where God began the indwelling of the Church, the whole Church of God. From that time on the Church was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which means that from effectual calling the Holy Spirit enabled the elect to receive the calling of the Word, regenerated them and worked faith and repentance in their hearts, permanently remaining in the elect as Rom 8:9 teaches.
John, your reference to the two most unique births in history does not apply in this debate and certainly does not set a precedent for the Church.
John UK wrote: 1) If, as you say, the very first people to be born again (incorrect, btw)...
2) if they were to repent and be baptised in Jesus name
John; 1) It was JESUS who said this (do you believe Him?)... Quote; John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you. for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you. for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you. for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you. for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you.
Notice the two ways John #1 WITH YOU #2 IN YOU
#1 old way before Acts 2 Pentecost. #2 Future way after Pentecost.
2) Oh dear John - You and your old Arminian convictions? When will you realise that GOD does not REWARD the sinner!!
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF SO BE THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS.
Two points; 1. Ye are NOT in the flesh. 2. *IF* the Spirit DWELLS, DWELLS, DWELLS *IN* you.
Two points; 1. If you have NOT the Spirit 2. YOU ARE *NOT* A CHRISTIAN.
Lurker wrote: 1. the HS indwelling unbelievers to make them willing and able to believe is roadkill
2. the HS indwelling children
1. Well Jesus did say that He came to save sinners not the righteous. And as Paul shows in Rom 7:14ff the same old wretched sinner gets indwelt by the Holy Spirit immediately upon calling/regeneration.
2. Age has nothing to do with indwelling - God is still in charge. All indwelling begins at - !! - I was going to say regeneration; BUT it really begins before that even - in Effectual Calling.
WCF 10/1 "All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God;...."
Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin"
Notice Paul thanks God for this work - not the (Arminian) sinner for his human effort.
Mike wrote: 1. It isn't my definition. What do you find wrong with it? 2. We're well behind in snowfall this year. In my immediate area, we've had but one fall of 3 inches, and December has seen few daytime temps below freezing. Which is ok by me. How about north of Vallum Aelium?
1. Don't worry I was only joking. 2. Had a few flurries last month but sleet and high winds are the feature at the momnent. Expecting snow though. Vallum Aelium is still in place keeping the english out.
Mike wrote: REGENERATE \Re*gen"er*ate\ (-?t), a. [L. regeneratus, p. p. of regenerare to regenerate; pref. re- re- + generare to beget 1. To generate or produce anew; to reproduce; to give new life, strength, or vigor to. 2. (Theol.) Born anew; become Christian; renovated in heart; changed from a natural to a spiritual state. 3. To cause to be spiritually born anew; to cause to become a Christian; to convert from sin to holiness; to implant holy affections in the heart of.
Nuuh; Too much of the Arminian access allowance points there Mike.
Lurker wrote: 1) Doublespeak. 2) Your spin of WCF 7/3c.... 3) the HS must enter upon unbelievers "to make them willing, and able to believe". 4) It doesn't say that. Grammatically, it says exactly what I reduced it to
1) Nope! I only speak scottish and as John will tell you, it's much more intellectual than english.
2) No spin. The WCF is correctly written as per Biblical Reformed Presbyterian exposition.
3) Right on Bro! That is Biblically correct.
4) It does. But don't forget the WCF is Reformed Theology - Thats different to Lurkerology. [URL=http://www.mbrem123.com/creeds/wcf_12.php]]]A WCF Commentary by A.A.Hodge[/URL] - NB especially his footnote #5.
Quote; "This divine sonship, into which the believer is introduced by adoption, includes the following principal elements and advantages-
5. The indwelling of the Spirit of his Son (Gal. 4:6), who forms in us a filial spirit, or a spirit becoming the children of God...."
bornfromabove wrote: 1. Can he be regenerated without being indwelt
Eph 1:13 According to this verse it was after they believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit
1. Yes. The OT proves that. However the problem in your question is "regenerated" - The OT does not use this terminology. We can be of no doubt that they were just as saved as the NT saints, but the Holy Spirit was not required by God to indwell, at that time. Only After Christ's glorification did this new operation of the Spirit come into force, by the grace of God.
2. 'Sealed' as a term relates to the old way of sealing a letter with wax and ring. It is the sign of the sender, a confirmation of whom and a removal of doubt as to who He is. What is being sealed? - Answer "Faith" NB "after that ye believed" - The Holy Spirit works faith in the heart of the believer. God the Holy Spirit is the only one who can apply the seal of faith in the sinner. See also 2Cor 1:22. Again as I have said to others, the Holy Spirit or the works of grace He performs are not earned by the sinner, and are not rewards to unrighteous sinners. There are two operations of the Spirit here (1) Faith. (2) Sealing.
2. Either the HS indwells believers or He indwells unbelievers
Now don't get all upset with me I'm not ignoring you, just waiting for post time to answer.
1. The absolute authority for Biblical Calvinist Presbyterians like myself is and always was (including the 16th/17th century) The Word of God. Thats one of the reasons I can see that the WCF is totally Biblical in all its statements. I see that below you are rewriting the WCF - Now that you've done rewriting the Bible.
2. Lurker here is how it all works. - "The UNbeliever when indwelt by the Holy Spirit *IS* a believer" No longer an unbeliever. Not until then can the sinner use faith and repent. That is 'born of the Spirit'.
The "middle way" I am referring to is where you, John and bfa, have decided there is a 'middle birth period' between born of the flesh and born of the Spirit, in contradiction to Jn 3:6.
On WCF "Adoption" (Viz Justified) The WCF is merely pointing out that when the elect receive the indwelling Spirit - they are of course justified at that point and onwards. Thus they are saved! Their justification is in and of their Saviour, Christ. This as the WCF declares is something God "vouchsafeth." As Eph 1:5 states.
John UK wrote: 1. I am very concerned about your irreverence when speaking about the Holy Ghost - "pops in for coffee"????!!!!
2. it is a simple fact that many OT saints were occasionally "filled with the Spirit"
3. Do you still believe that the OT saints were believers yet were never indwelt nor regenerated?
1. This is a reference to your heretical ideas on the Holy Spirit.
2. AAAaaarrghhh!!! Not again? POST GLORIFICATION - POST GLORIFICATION - POST PENTECOST - POST PENTECOST John these are different from the Old Testament. John these are different from the Old Testament.
3. POST GLORIFICATION - POST GLORIFICATION - POST PENTECOST POST PENTECOST. Quoting Jesus for the ten millionth time = "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Old way = DWELLETH *WITH* *WITH* *WITH*
Future way = SHALL BE *IN* *IN* *IN*
John. This guy Jesus was the Son of God, so you can trust in what He wrote and said.
We Presbyterians believe in Jesus and His Bible - What do you Baptists believe?
bornfromabove wrote: 1. When we are regenerated the scripture seems to be silent as to whether the Spirit indwells at this point or not. 2. Did I suggest that in Acts 2 this was a temporary event? 3. Re: the verses you posted. Wasnâ€™t Paul writing to believers
1. Not another one??? This is weird! Can't you people see plain english? Bible version = That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. YOUR version = (1) born of flesh. (2) Born of something else. (3) born of Spirit. Like John and Lurker you have invented a middle way? What do you call it? Half flesh - Half Spirit?
2. I didn't say you did - what I put forward is a proposal WHICH I ANSWERED. Hows your english? Like Johns?
3. Paul describes the status of the elect POST GLORIFICATION - POST PENTECOST.
Attention folks = THERE IS NO MIDDLE WAY!!!
Romans 8:9 makes a specific point whether to a believer or to a giraffe!!!
Regeneration is the commencement of indwelling.
Your (John/Lurker) version.... Regeneration - Spirit pops in for coffee AND LEAVES? and does not become a permanent resident until later??? WHY? WHY? WHY? Perhaps He doesn't like the wallpaper?
Come on fellas tell us what your religion is called???
bornfromabove wrote: Where does it say in Scripture that we are indwelt of the Holy Spirit at the point of regeneration (born again)?
bfa I could ask you where does it not! However We are the Temple of the Holy Ghost; 1Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Jesus teaches only two "born" ways of existence. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Flesh is clearly dead in sin. Born of the Spirit is Jesus new way of promise at this stage in His teaching.
Pentecost Acts 2 refers to the Spirit coming down and filling them. Surely this is not supposed to be a temporary event. Scripture goes on to state otherwise.
2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
God the Father and God the Son live (indwell) in the elect by their Holy Spirit.
bornfromabove wrote: I think he is saying that the old testament saints were not indwelt of the Holy Spirit but that he dwelled with them
bfa What I am saying is what Jesus Said quote John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Note the TWO methods... 1) "He dwelleth with you" 2) "and shall be in you"
This is part of the Promise of Christ and Scripture.
1) "dwelleth with" is Pre-Glorification = BUT obviously in the power of God not any less than Post-Glorification days.
2) "shall be in you" is a promise of future operation of the Spirit, hence Post glorification and post Pentecost. "Indwelling" happened after this but we are saved NO LESS than the OT saints were.
"Born again" or Born of the Spirit clearly indicates the "indwelling" since the Spirit becomes the Spirit of the elect. As Paul describes in Rom 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Clearly Paul here provides this description/operation after Pentecost.
John seems to have difficulty reading these facts!
John UK wrote: 1) You're now saying that a man can be spiritually enlightened without the new birth, when considering that you equated the new birth with indwelling. 2) So theoretically, you can see my point that a man can be brought to repentance and faith without being born again. 3) But if you disagree with that, then will you answer my question as to how Simeon was spiritually enlightened without being born again. Or Abraham, or any of the OT saints?
1) I never said that John!! Born Again/Regeneration/Born of the Spirit (indwelling) - is the start of the whole proceedings to bring the elect unto salvation.
2) Thats baloney John.
3) Simeon, OT Saints et al - Before Christ's glorification DWELLING **WITH** was the work of the Holy Spirit. THIS does not diminish the power of God.
"Born Again" "Regeneration" "Born of the Spirit" "indwelling" is POST GLORIFICATION and POST PENTECOST.
Oy vey iz mir - How many times do I have to teach you what the Bible really says.