s c, your arguments really make no sense, and I am terribly sorry you do not see it. I am thankful, however, that you have a passion for doing what you think is right by Christ and as I said before, may God continue to teach us both. Just keep in mind Prov 19:2 "Even zeal is not good without knowledge".
Colossians 2:8-10, 20-23 (8) Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. (9) For the entire fullness of Gods nature dwells bodily in Christ, (10) and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
(20) If you died with the Messiah to the elemental forces of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: (21) Don't handle, don't taste, don't touch? (22) All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are commands and doctrines of men. (23) Although these have a reputation of wisdom by promoting ascetic practices, humility, and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value in curbing self-indulgence.
Dialoging with only those whose choose to abstain but acknowledge moderation is not a sin, I respect your view greatly and you yourselves (Frank and UPS specifically). I have difficulty understanding why a Christian chooses to abstain from something Christ provided (water to wine), used and served (Passover comes to mind) and commended in a host of analogies (as in "I am the vine, and you are the branches" spoken of during the last supper). It seems to be provided for our enjoyment and health, our happiness and joy and more importantly, as a symbol of the ultimate sacrifice made on behalf of His wretched sinners. If we are commanded to take the Lord's Supper, what thought process allows one to change it to grape juice? I still maintain both should be served for those who hold a conscience toward abstaining from drinking, for the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking, nor should such an issue cause division; but what allows one to change the sacraments laid out by Christ's hand? Really, just a question with zero ulterior motive. I do not and will not reply to the poster under the name SteveR; as a matter of fact, I skip anything with his name, just fyi.
s c, no worries, I will never ask you to drink with me. And when Christ returns, everything will be made clear and these non-salvation issues will finally be understood, if we even care at that point. I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to work in both of our lives, revealing His truth in His time and His way. God bless.
s c, "mixed wine" does not mean dilution, it means it was mixed with spices to enhance the flavor for diverse palet's. See Prov 9:1-5. Here, Wisdom has mixed her wine and offers it for all to drink. It is not diluted, it is spiced.
Prov 23:31, your interpretation for this text was to not even look at fermented drink. This is so taken out of context... If you back up to 29 and read through verse 35, this is obviously speaking of a drunkard. The glass is not red because of the wine, but because of bloodshot eyes of the drunk.
You should most certainly not consume any alcohol if you feel you shouldn't; and far be it from me to suggest we must drink. But you are lying to yourself here and being very dishonest in your interpretations.
UP, thank you. What a kind, honest statement. How good and pleasant it is when the body of Christ can get along! My dear husband felt the same way, but was so offended that someone would take the Lord's Supper so trivially and lightly. While wine is served at communion, grape juice is, too, for those who's conscience would say otherwise. Let the Holy Spirit do the convincing; we tend to muddle this up too much with opinions instead of facts. A peaceful night to all.
Pslm 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
God bless you gentlemen! We had an incident a few months previous in church during communion. The tray passed our way and lo and behold there was a row of WATER AND SALTINES. My husband who is generally quiet and deals with things the same way stood and rebuked the elders and pastor right there. A husband and wife said they were fasting and couldn't eat the bread and grape juice. So my dear husband lovingly launched into the finer points of the Lord's Supper. An elder commented that there are those who see the true evils of wine and would leave any church that served wine. When asked what would stop us from serving Coke and pizza bites at the next communion if we didn't have to follow Christ's example there was an lot of awkward silence. In the following weeks the pastor and elders did a study on the use of wine. We now serve wine during communion and look forward to the day when we will drink it with Christ in paradise!
This really gets old and is exactly why I had stopped commenting on SA. We take our life experiences, fit them into biblical law, and chuck the rest of the Bible out the window. Then wave our righteousness flag about how good we are now thanks to God and how pleased God is with us. Drunkenness is a sin, not drinking; gluttony is a sin, not eating; fornication, adultery and sexual immorality are sins, not relations in a marriage. Stop transmuting sin onto objects.
I grew up in the SDA church and have heard EVERY single argumemt against drinking alcohol in any form. They will not hold up against the Bible's lawful use of wine. If you are convinced it's a sin, be convinced unto God. In the end will come those who tell you what to eat and drink and sear the conscience of many weaker brothers and sisters in Christ when they are not sinning at all. The church has a long, healthy history of drinking alcohol. (By the way, look at the prohibition movement - it was started by women.) The problem is SIN, not alcohol.
Jim, people often confuse education with public schooling. I don't fault people for this because most of us have been indoctrinated to buy that load of hooey. But by biblical standards, education is discipleship, life skills, living. How many unemployeed men and women hold college degrees? Most of them. How will the "under privileged" be educated? That's not a difficult question. Give them life skills, and let them rise to a level they can live with instead of wasting 13 years in sub par schooling for... what, exactly? Government schools are not and were not established for this purpose and we have suffered for it ever since. The fruit on that tree is rottenly ripe and, sadly, plentiful. But it's just a stinking lot of entitlement, uncivilized, unsocialized, rude, disrespectful, ignorant adult-children that are a burden to society instead of a blessing. When you deviate from God's standards this is what you're left with.
Thanks Frank! We do not make "good money" by societal standards, yet we lack for absolutley nothing. We have given up much only to find that where are treasures are, there our hearts are also; it's just difficult to see that when you need a newer phone, a new tablet, TV, restaurant diets, entertainment... We have simplified and downsized only to find we overflow with blessings. God never buys that which He does not pay for. I would encourage families of one to many to do whatever you can to keep Mom at home raising those eternal souls. It's no one elses job and when you give your family to His plan, it WILL ultimatley be blessed beyond your understanding! We currently homeschool 4 with 3 in the wings. God makes it successful.
DeVos was appointed to the Department of Education (which should be abolished); it is NOT the Department of Public Education. Of all the ways a child can be educated (Christians should be homeschooling; render to Caesar only that which belongs to him), why do you liberal socialists continue to insist on the absolute least successful form of education? Or are the minions you so desperatley need to keep pushing the agenda of Satan being loosed from your monetary grip? Huh.
The commments are right on. Reminds me of yet another Proverb "This is the way of an adultress: she eats and wipes her mouth and says 'I've done nothing wrong.'" (30:20) It seem like truly we have come to the point where sound teaching, doctrines and reasoning have been traded for insanity.
"There is a generation that curses its father and does not bless its mother. There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes, yet not washed from its filth. There is a generation- how haughty its eyes and pretentious its looks. There is a generation whose teeth are swords, who fangs are knives, devouring the oppressed from the land and the needy from among mankind." Prov 30:11-14
Sadly Chris, there is a subtle but very active current to eugenics that holds 3 and even 5 yr old children as potential "abortive targets" because they haven't reached an age of enlightenment. Abortion and assisted suicide are part and parcel.
Discretion and understanding watch over and guard those who fear God "from the one who says perverse things, from those who abandon the right paths to walk in the way of darkness, those who enjoy doing evil and celebrate perversion, whose paths are crooked, and ways are devious." Prov 2:12-1
All will be handled by Christ with true justice meted out. I pray that day would be right around the corner.
Ahem... "Making" people? Or is it simply a vehicle in which our depravity is more readily visible? A snowflake would contend a fork makes us fat. Of course, this is meant to take the responsibility off the individual, make it something you are a victum of and thereby you can be treated for it without having to be held responsible for your actions - whatever they be. We would do well to remeber there are no idle words spoken.
Frank, I couldn't agree more with your statement about exposure of sin and hypocrisy through prosperity. Proverbs 30:8-9 "Keep falsehood and deceitful words far from me. Give me neither poverty nor wealth; feed me with the food I need. Otherwise, I might have too much and deny You, saying, 'Who is the Lord?' or I might have nothing and steal, profaning the name of my God." I have nothing against prosperity, God's blessing include prosperity; however, the pride of humans so often seems to surface when we are "fat and happy". In the US, it's often as little as cable TV, Starbucks and restaurants. I really think as long as you keep those things engaging the public, they would roll over and let themselves be led into whatever abominiation de jur.
And in this country the loud minority rant, and they scream, and they cry and they throw out the most vile, angry, hateful rhetoric... It reminds me of when God would give the Isrealites "one more chance" and they would scream and cry for their idols, meat pots and slavery. The absurdity and insanity of these blinded people almost takes my breath away - leaves me speechless. Praise God He has written the script and even if I don't get it, we're all playing His tune. He is always and forever in absolute control.