Mike wrote:
I'd say about as curious as to how Christ's atonement was sufficient for some, but not all.

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Just noticed JD's post
EG
"Now for the "beginning".
First of all we must look at how the term applies to Israel who certainly had a relationship with God for at least 1500 years before the Acts was written."

JD wrote:
Can someone tell me why God needs to convince the elect by the agency of "signs" if he has an "effectual" call for them that they cannot resist?

Sorry Lord, your wrong about this calling, JD says so.

JD can we assume that your god can't call effectually without the sinners permission.
(Which is the RC/Arminian doctrine)

V13 states
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord" = Why? Since JD says that man can do it all by himself.

"because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" = God's beginning doesn't begin until the sinner begins...
Well thats what JD'ism teaches anyway.

"through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" = Nope the Spirit is not involved in this process iaw JD. Sin is simply a head cold which man can deal with himself. As for the truth - Some say the truth will set you free, JD alternatively teaches that man can unlock the cell door all by himself, so there!!

JD conclusion
Election is the DIY salvation of all "good" sinners.

33k wrote:
By your "logic" Minnow you alone are the theological liberal and supporter of all things gay and contemporary Anglican.

Quote
"There is an old maxim which says, Know your enemy! I am convinced that in modern liberalism we are face to face with the greatest cultural enemy of Christianity in our day. Modern liberalism is public enemy number one. If we are going to defend ourselves, our families, our churches, and our country against it, we must know our enemy!" (Waldron)

Some form of universalism has always been around in history. In today's religious culture we can observe not only the Liberal views but also a human emotional response to the question of who gets saved. I suppose mans instinct for survival is inclusive, or he may doubt his own eternity.

After all it has been taught and is still taught......

"Such avowed Protestants as Karl Barth and William Barclay also embrace universalism, one on the grounds that all are condemned in Christ's death but accepted in His resurrection, the other on the basis of the alleged universal Fatherhood of God and the universal scope of the Love of God in Christ.

Mike wrote:
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
So Minnow, those predestinated were foreknown prior to the predestinating. But here again, the favored theology will require that foreknow doesn't really mean foreknow, right?

Predestinate = Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.

Mike;
Remember it is God's Word which applies it in this order. Not mine.

I always get the impression here that what we are really discussing is the Sovereignty of God. Specifically the omnipotence/omniscience of God.

Election I'm sure implies to you as God's choice as opposed to mans.
The mind of God and the extent of its power being vast, infinite and immutable clearly is different to that of HIS creature. His perception of the purpose of creation and the lives lived within it are beyond our ken.

5 Having predestinated *US* unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL,
=God did the predestinating at the beginning of the world. What did God predestinate? HIS unconvinced hope that some people MIGHT overcome sin and enmity to choose heaven over hell? Or The confirmed effectual calling of His chosen people to Christ according to the will OF GOD.

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made *US* accepted in the beloved.
= The glory of God’s grace is to be praised – BECAUSE it is in God’s grace (alone) that HE Himself made *US* acceptable in Jesus.

7 In whom *WE* have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
9 Having made known unto *US* the MYSTERY of HIS WILL, according to HIS good pleasure

"Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and estate of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.(WCF 18)

Deut 29:19; Job 8:13-14; Micah 3:11; John 8:41. Mat 7:22-23. 1 John 2:3; 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 5:13. Rom 5:2, 5.

This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God: which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption."(WCF 18)

Here is a good description of modern political application and theory.

JD wrote:
All I want is a verse that assures you that you are one of the elect among the deceived and the religious lost. That is all I want.

What YOU want is a verse which YOU feel convinces YOU that one is elect or not. If a Calvinist told you that the sky was blue and the sea was wet you wouldn't accept it.

Jesus said in Mark's Gospel
4:11 "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

Here the Lord distinguishes between two groups of people. One Christ teaches that they will *be given* to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.

The second group He states will not perceive and not understand, - in case they are converted. Clearly HE does not want them to be forgiven.

Matt 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

JD wrote:
These are the verses you have cited for your very own particular election and I would like to say that you have no more exclusivity to these verses than the arminian. They are not particular verses, they are general versesw. The arminian could show up one day before God and say "you should let me into heaven because you said "as many" as received him you gave power to become the sons of God. You must keep your word".

Of course the verses are open to interpretation of other doctrines like Arminian, RC, JW, etc etc, - all of whom proclaim the "free will" of man, over the Sovereignty of God. Just as you JD, would have us believe that every sinner can obey every verb in Scripture, like Pelagius did.

Remember the Lord's teaching on "fruit" then remember that we are to judge by the fruit of the person.
How is it YOU judge the RC to be in error?

JD wrote:
please explain how you know you are elect. I want a bible promise that is to you personally telling you that YOU are elect.

Ro 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God"

John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he *POWER* to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"

What does the term "power" here signify JD?

Col 1:12 "Giving thanks unto the Father, WHICH HATH MADE US MEET to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light"

Remember!! The Scripture is only effective in the hands of the Holy Spirit. There are many who read the Bible but do not receive the truth.

JD wrote:
Whoa! No man has faith according to you and John C. If God could give it to you, why could he not give it to all men? I read somewhere that God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Rom 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man THAT IS AMONG YOU, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the **MEASURE** of faith.
4 For as we have many members in ONE BODY, and all members have not the same office:
5 So WE, being many, are ONE BODY IN Christ, and every one members one of another."

THIS refers to the Body of Christ JD.
Do you know who they are???

GG wrote:
Actually they sound like Orthodox Catholics...they will fit in nicely!

XVIII of the Lords Supper

"Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions."

XXXII. Of the Marriage of Priests

"Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, are not commanded by God's Law, either to vow the estate of single life, or to abstain from marriage: therefore it is lawful for them, as for all other Christian men, to marry at their own discretion, as they shall judge the same to serve better to godliness."

Mike wrote:
Unless He loved them, wanted them to live, and made a way.

If we lived in a world without the crucifixion, then I could perceive the reason d’tre for the love only stance.

Justice, mercy, propitiation, faith and indeed the wrath must also be taken into consideration. God abhors sin, iniquity and transgression, all of which are prevalent in the human condition.

Jesus, God's only Son, is a "propitiation" for our sins. Thus He was sent to appease God the judge, NOT just God’s emotional affections for errant mortals. The "obedience" of Christ to death upon the cross is another important and relevant factor.

Let’s not reduce God’s love or Christ’s atoning sacrifice to an emotive reaction to a bunch of sinners.

Do not void the purpose of God (who IS love) from justice, atonement, righteousness and His coming wrath against the iniquity in mankind.

Mike wrote:
It would be a simple matter for God to totally destroy (humanly speaking, for it would be contradictory and out of character for Him to do so against His own creation which He called “very good”) the human race in order to serve the purposes of His justice.

Mike; "But He graciously doesn't."

= But HE did.

Mike; "Where does this grace come from? Out of His incredible love, not His need for justice."

= Was the flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the sacking of Jericho, not to mention Achan and his entire family. – love or justice?

Mike; "Jesus came down because of love, not justice."

I'm not so surprised the NAZI party was able to emerge in Germany now! I guess democracy has a different meaning over there.
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This is from guardian.co.uk

Michael Hranek wrote:
Here is a heinous example of the "Puritans" interpretation on their doctrine of predestination from the WCF
Q
The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice EOQ

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

2Tim 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Mike wrote:
NY is at its most green, Minnow. Very nice. And the Highlands?
You are certainly right in recognizing God's sovereign grace. God is always sovereign, and omnipotent. That's how he sovereignly made man in his image, one aspect of which, unlike the animals, man is blessed with free will. Of course that's why man is held accountable for his actions, unlike the animals, which are not held accountable. They have no free will after all.