Only the "ELECT" are saints. So that leaves the question are you "ELECT" or not? Some of you claim to be "ELECT" and aren't. Some of you don't claim to be "ELECT" and are. Others, who aren't "ELECT" today, may eventually become "ELECT" later after God had suffienctly dealt with them. Some who proclaim loudly and persistently their "ELECTION" are fooling themselves...look at their deeds not their words. The Pope isn't saying that only those who he has declared "Saints" are the only saints. Repeat. The Pope isn't saying that only those who he has declared "Saints" are the only saints. He is identifying those people, who in the Churches investigation, are proven to be in God's presense. Furthermore, these men and women are "rised up" for their living brothers and sisters, so that they may benefit from their example and know that becoming real "Saints": 1) Is possible, 2) That real Saints are just human beings, 3) God will help them on the path to sainthood. The Church recognizes that every real Christian is a saint...that is the norm, these special few are exceptional.
I find that it is always easier and more comforting to the Fundies out there in SA land to look for Catholic sins and paint them in "Large Red Letters". However, when their own sins are mentioned......the chirping of crickets is heard throughout the land. If I were to go to any Catholic site, would I find news item after news item, pointing out every flaw, every failing of "MY SEPARATED BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST"? Nope! You guys shouldn't feel so defensive about sin....we all have our share...don't we?
I understand that A. Einstein once remarked that, "I would think myself uneducated if I couldn't find at least two ways to spell any one word" (or words to that effect). I wish SA had "Spell Checker" or could at least read my mind. Thanks for the correction.
When the Bible speaks of the Whore of Babylon, seated on the 7 hills, those hills are in the old pagan city of Rome, found on the east bank of the Tiber. The Vatican does not sit on those 7 hills, but rather is found on the west bank of the new, Christian-era City of Rome. Don't use your bigotry to interpret scripture...or the wornout bablings of a Quisling like R. Bennett. May God forgive him for his blindness.
GG: A sheep from the true flock of the Lord. Not some blind goat fallen into a ditch with some blind, hirling, Shepard.
"...one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass...".
Why? One explaination would be that, "...not one jot or one tittle.." was a local expression like, "Close enough for Govt. work", or "tighter than the skin on a hot dog".
Some books were written in Hebrew, others in Greek or Aramaic. The only compilation of books available around Jesus' time was the Greek Septuagint. Because it was in Greek, it found wide usage with Greek speaking Jews. Jesus lived in Gallilee, not the most Jewish of places to live. The Hebrew compilation followed in @90 a.d. in Jamnia, when the Jewish Rabbi's cleansed all non-Hebrew works from the Jewish collection of scriptures because they were used by the then "hated" Christians. The great majority of scripture quotes in the N.T. are from the Septuagint. If I am in error, I would be glad to learn differently.
GG's Behinder: News of my femininity shall come as a great surprise to my Mother and my wife. Minder....you rascal you, you're not focusing on your target...me! So...you're saying if it isn't in the Tanakh, which I suppose is the Jewish OT, then it can't be....Christian? It must be a profound satisfaction to you to know that you are in perfect Scriptural agreement with those folks who not only missed the coming of their Savior the first time, but helped to have him killed, persecuted his Church, and now are waiting for his "First Coming"...which will really be his "Second". Also, it seems to me that the injunction against "Adding to Scripture", also has an injunction against "Subtracting FROM Scripture". The Reformers, coming as they did 1500 years after Christ's granting the power to "Bind and Loose" to his true Church, the One, True, and Apostolic, Roman Catholic Church, these "Gangs that couldn't shoot straight" had no Authority and certainly no power to drop any lawfully declared "Inspired" books from God's word. Being a "Former Catholic" won't "cut the mustard" with the Lord...sorry!
Was Jesus a Christian...was he the first Christian? No! He was from first to last a Jew...the perfect Jew. As a Jew, Jesus would have done was Jews do. Especially, Jews from the first half of the first century. If scripture is your thing, how many times did Jesus follow Jewish Tradition, the Tradition from God not men. Always! He went to Synogue, he observed Sabbath and Pass Over....and Hannuka, and he prayed for his dead Step-father Joseph, because that what good Jews did...still do. He would have read the Septuagint and been familiar with First & Second Maccabees. In Second Maccabees, the hero discovers that many dead Jewish soldiers died with an idol around their neck...he prayed for their souls. It is from 1&2 Maccabee that Hannuka comes from (John 10:22). Where in scripture does Jesus condemn praying for others - alive or dead? God is not the God of the Dead, but of the Living. Jesus commands the Living to pray for the Living. I am not replacing God but honoring the Hierarchy which he established. The Trinity at the top, then the Angels, then his Elect...from the greatest to the smallest...all family...all interested in the salvation and good of the family. Paying the priest $5 for a Mass for a dead relative is considered "Courteous". Praying for them is free!
I am very tired of people who claim to be innocently offering the truth as they quote other men's words, yet they interject their own words to "twist" the meaning to their own devient purposes. She quotes, "...bodies of...martyrs...are to be venerated [I.E, WORSHIPPED AND ADORED] by the faithful...". Those are HER words and they should not be presented in such a fashion that changes the meaning of the original text. I state plainly what every HONEST STUDENT of Catholicism knows for a fact, namely that Catholic "Veneration" is in NO WAY like Catholic "Worship" nor can it be confused with Catholic "Adoration" of the Most High God. It is not just to hold Catholic dogma up to Protestant analysis with Protestant definition of terms and not allow background knowledge. It is a pity that any person of a meek nature should be offended by my strong words, but as Truman said, "If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the Kitchen". I rather imagine that she will take any "dueling scars" that she gets from me and display then with pride to her peers. MH says, "...there is no...difference in the adoration and veneration Roman Catholics have...saints and...God". Are these statements more "golden quotes" from the 'Council of Trent' or more twisted words from the adversary?
Even an ex-catholic should know the Catholic Churches definition of "Veneration" and "Worship". If you are not going to do the "Due Diligence" required to be truthful, then with all due respect...."Shut yer yap!"
(A Satirical Thought) Perhaps we US Christians are totally misreading the Moslem intent put forward by those great theological minds in the "Peaceful Religion of Islam". Perhaps in the "Up means Down" and "Right means Left" world of the Middle East, perhaps burning a place of worship to the ground is really meant to pay homage and respect to the faith of the supposed victim. Think of it as sending a purified and Holy incense unto the Lord...say...as a "burnt offering to God". Doesn't it therefore follow the law of courtesy that we in the US follow our Eqyptian Islamic brothers example and "Free" some of their Mosques from bondage to this "Veil of Tears" and allow the sweet smell of Islamic smoke to arise like incense to our Father in Heaven...as say...a "burnt offering" from the citizens of America for all the wonderful things they have done for us. Where did I put those matches? Only kidding......only kidding.....just having a little fun here.
Ah! I see. Christian Hoteliers give up their right to have opinions or a personal faith in God and must allow their guests to insult their Religion. This could all be solved over a good old fashioned ham sandwich and a couple of bottles of Lone Star.
The quotes from the Council of Trent are just fine as they are "WITHOUT" your slanted, uneducated spin. It is not praying to the dead. It is asking those Saints who stand in the presense of God, to ask God to help us. Honor [Paid] to relics is only honor, not worship. Much like the honor [paid] by the SA folks to the "Book" known as the Bible. When Jesus asked his followers to "pray for one another", where in those scriptures did he specify that one must be "alive"? God said to heed his words, not trust the twisted notions of some wing-wang with a phony Southern accent, a Pompador hair cut, and an ice cream colored, 3 piece suit.
"Do you really grasp what you are reading?". "How can I, the man replied, "unless someone explain it to me?". Go to the orginal Church, not the Faux Church of men.
John UK: I know you will surely correct me for not tolling the line as you know it, but here goes. Moses' serpent represented sin, raised upon a wooden post, every Israelite who looked upon the serpent was saved from destruction. Jesus was raised upon a wooden cross and God the Father was pleased to have Jesus become as sin. All who look upon Jesus as their Lord and Savior will likewise be saved by their faith in him. I hope that our past meeting was not traumatic, if so I am sorry.
MH: Either one or both! I know what you mean MH. But, it's not my fault that I appear to be creative when my posts are compared to your's. I guess it's just the Holy Spirit at work in me! Actually, Moses used a bronze serpent and the Israelites put art works on the Temple walls and on their furniture. Regardless, we are injoined against worshipping anyone or anything but the Trinity.......this is what the RCC teaches. Now, about y'all worshipping the King James Bible....
June-9/18/09-03:07pm: #1)"The practice...sacred images...". Veneration is defined as non-worshipful respect paid to a human or to a Holy object (Holy Bible). Only the Trinity is worshipped as God. #2)"images of our Lord...saints" Only the Trinity is worshipped as God.
Protest: Why can't we rewrite history, you've had a 500 year head start. Truth? You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the flanks. Your problem with the Bible is 1)It wasn't written in God's hand-writing, but Man's. 2)Jesus left behind oral teachings of God's word. 3)If you had a good bible (You dropped 7 books from it), you would still misunderstand most of it.
June-9/18/09-03:56pm: The bible is against contacting the dead as in a seance or the use of a Medium. However, Christ himself tells us to pray for one another. Further, he doesn't specify that we should stop praying for others when we are dead, or that we shouldn't ask our friends and family in Heaven to ask God for favors in our stead. For an ex-catholic you are really confused about what you left behind.
The use of "Relics", in particular the use of the remains of the bodies of Saints in Catholic practice, has absolutely nothing to do with worship. It is a practice harkening back to the early Christian Church, during the persecution of the pagan Romans, when the Christians hide in the catacombs and worshipped God over the graves of their honored dead. That is all there is to it. It is a reminder that those Christians who have died in the friendship of the Lord are not forgotten and their sacrifices are still a valued part of our daily lives. No magic...no idolatry...no voodoo...no bud-a-boo.....just remembering God's good and worthy servants, who have gone before.