Have any of you ever thought of what the world would have been like if Adam had not sinned? Do you think God made them male and female for the purpose of procreation? Do you think children would have been born in the image of Adam who was in the image of God? Do you think they would have been sealed in righteousness because of Adam's obedience instead of being sinners in Adam because of his disobedience?
Does it make sense that those who are born again and are in Christ are made righteous because of his righteousness? Does this make the headship of these two families more clear?
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I don't have room to quote all of Ro 5:12 and following but consider this:
Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
The gift is the Holy Spirit who is Life.
Ro 5:17 For if by one manâ€™s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
I challenge you men to consider the family headship of the two men. The gift is available to all Adams rac
I am going to type slowly because I desire you to think.
Why is it so important to God for men to receive the Holy Ghost. And what does receiving the Holy Ghost make men. (hint: the sons of God)? What was Adam? (Hint: The son of God).
Think. Both Adam and Jesus Christ were called the sons of God. They were the only ones who were sons of God, among men, and they were federal heads of families. Both were in the image of God but the first Adam fell and along with his fall, all his offspring were born in his image and not God's.However, the last Adam restored to mankind what the first Adam lost and now it is said that those who are born again are in the image of Christ, who is in the image of God. Now, I have Scripture for all yhis but to save room I am not posting it in this frame.
Now, we must decide what that image is and what did it entail? Does the image of God mean that we look kike him when we stand in front of a mirror? Why, no, that is silly! We must look at Adam before the fall when he was in God's image to determine what that image was. What was different about Adam after the fall. Right! He was dead spiritually. The Holy Spirit had departed. What is the gift of God for all believers today? Ridgt! The Holy Ghost! More later!
Because it was the ONLY sin ever committed by a man who had a spotless, sin-free nature! Adam was totally aware of his choice; had a specific command direct from God NOT to do what he did; but, in outright rebellion, Adam chose to become INDEPENDENT of God and go his own way despite the stated consequences _
Thank you for the big AMEN, DJC49. Finally you agree with me on something. You have probably noticed that I have been contending with these calvinists that Adam's sin was not a moral or character failure, but an intelletual one. Now you weigh in saying the same thing. Way to go. N ow, we need to agree on why he sinned and why God was willing to redeem him.
And you make a GROSS error in conferring characteristics of the antitype onto the type! It's like attributing the color of a man's eyes onto his shadow. You, JD, have it all backwards.
Uh, er, uh, ah, if the type and anti-type had nothing in common, would the type and anti-type make any sense? Probably less than you did with that silly reasoning!
And while we are on the subject, You said
Adam chose to become INDEPENDENT of God and go his own way despite the stated consequences. _
You know, contender, the arrogance of you fellows wearies me. You label heresies anything that does not agree with calvinism and since everyone knows what every position is (and if they don't, they merely have to read the cathechisms and the confessions to see what must be believed) you don't even feel a need to deal with the subject.
You fellows are not interested in persuading anyone of the truth. You do not even know the truth. You really cannot defend hardly any of your beliefs from a personal experience of study, prayer, seeking, and desiring to be taught by the book and the God of the book. You guys have a collective mindset. No one was even upset when one of you plain out denied that Jesus Chjrist was tempted in all points like as we are. Or when another denied that Jesus Christ received his humanity through Mary. A Calvinist was speaking therefore no rebuke or correction or any such thing.
You fellows have a real problem. It is serious. You do not know what you are missing by ignoring the Scriptures and not allowing them to speak to you.
My humble advice is to chuck these reformation writers and ask God to teach you his truth. Time is running out. We don't have long. Do it now.
Third, if being in the presence of God confers upon someone the Shekinah glory, then I would guess that CAIN had that same Shekinah glory since he too was in the presence of the LORD for it is written: _
Don't take this personally DJC49 because it could apply to many of your tribe on here but for one to be as ignorant as you seem to be in certain areas one must make a great effort and I think you are just pulling my leg at times.
You have much too low a view of Adam. Speaking of Cain and Adam, God did not say anything bad about Adam like he did Cain. For instance, he said this about Cain; Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain,
He never warned people to not go after the way of Adam. Was Adam's sin of introducing death into the world worse than Cain's sin of killing a single man, his brother?
I mentioned the types. I said we learn about Christ by looking at the clearly designated type, Adam but the reverse is also true. We can learn things about Adam by looking at the person of Christ and reading the comparisons and contrasts.
But, I am greatly troubled and instructed by the comments by most of your people here on this subject. I believe you deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh!
Do you actually think Adam was a cave man? He communed right in the presence of God. Do you think the smartyest man in the universe ever created would not have known he was naked? Do you know when you are naked?
You guys never think past your systenmatic theology.
Who else in the Scriptures was covered with the Shekinah glory?
Adam may have been a figure of him that was to come but he was not Christ. In the Scriptures Christ and Adam are different in the following references:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
"The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." _
There is absolutely no hope for you men as is manifested by these comments by contender. A contrasting type is a type nevertheless and both kinds of types are realized in Adam. I have already pointed this out. You do not have enough understanding for an inytelligent conversation. This is not a put down of your person but it is a put down of your ungodly religion that has blinded you so!
If Adam simply sinned to sacrifice his life for his wife, then why was he ashamed and hid himself. The reason was he knew he had commited sin and was guilty before God. _
Because the glorified Adam, created in the image of God, and communing in his presence was clothed upon by the Shikinah glory. When he sinned he was naked because his clothing provided by God was gone. He then sought for alternative clothing and he could no longer walk in the presence of God.
Contender wrote: Can you please reiterate the purpose that Adam sinned because it was not clear to me in your previous posts. I am not sure what you are trying to convey, but whatever it is, appears heretical not to mention blasphemous.
Yes, I will.
My point was that the types of Scripture are the confirmation of and for NT truths. It is the safegaurd for us to determine that we are not in error. It was therefore my contention that you fellows have no understanding of this to any depth and so truth is hidden from you.
A case in point was at one time I illustrated how Ge 22-24 was a continuing type that prefigures the exact thiungs that we see in the church age and a religion professor of a bible institute in Australia scoffed asnd almost choked on his coffee. Hey, he is the best you have and he has no understanding.
The scripture says Adam is a figure of him that was to come. God invites us to look at Adam to learn his truth and as Adam died for his bride, so did Christ died for his. You were correct that Adam understood what he was doing, but Eve did not.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Christ is greater than Adam not equal for Christ was God and man, perfect, righteous and holy in all His ways and was not in the least capable of sinning for He was God and is the second person of the holy Trinity. _
Will you people keep up and not attempt to answer things I have not claimed? It is almost impossible to deal with you people because of your desire to prove that you are the smartest people in the room. In doing so, you manifest a GREAT deal of ignorance and plain unbelief! People in the last few posts have actually took issue with the clear statements of God concerning Jesus Chrsit. This is called denial! _
Adam was not perfect before the fall else he would not have sinned by eating of the forbidden fruit. _
Adam did not sin because he was imperfect, he sinned because of a purpose. I have explained his purpose already and I am not going to do it again! It was not a moral or character failure! That is yours and Gill's contention! It is not what the Scriptures teach.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived,
And he was not an idiot. He was the smartest man who ever lived with the exception of Christ. He walked with God, for crying out loud. He sinned with knowledge and forethought!
The Lone Wolf wrote: Two question for JD, Was Christ suceptible (sic) to contracting human diseases of the flesh like colds, sore throats, flu, leprosy etc. like you and me? If as you say that Christ received his hunan nature from Mary, do you claim that she was perfectly sinless?
Q 1- How could he contract diseases and maladies like you and me when he healed those types of things with a failure rate of zero? However, he did all his miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. Physically, he was as you and me, he grew tired, he hungered, and he needed rest. Those powers he did through the Spirit are kingdom powers. Wellness will be the norm when it (The kingdom) is physically established on earth.
Q 2 - If I said he received his humanity FROM Mary, I apologize in sackcloth and ashes. He received his humanity THROUGH Mary and there is a great difference and defines why I am a KJV man. Words have different meanings and connotations and different words, including prepositions, no, especially prepositions, have different meanings.
But, no, Mary was not sinless and I do not know why you would ask suvh a question.
Are you teaching your charges that Jesus Christ was not fully human? Is that what you are trying to teach us?
Adam was created upright in that he was right and innocent before God, he was given knowledge and understanding. He was righteous in that his will was in harmony with Godâ€™s will and he loved to do the will of God. He was holy; there was no sin in him but Adam was not created perfect! He fell into sin! _
Well, this is certainly human reasoning at it's worst!
Consider these similarities.
Adam was alive, Both spiritually and physically. So was Christ.
Adam possessed the Spirit of God, So did Christ
Adam had fellowship with God, So did Christ
Adam willingly took it upon himself to sin because of the guilt of someone else, so Christ willingly took someone elses sin upon himself because of their guilt.
Adam died spiritually, so Christ died spiritually, (My God, (the Father) My God, (The Spirit) why hast thou forsaken me). Death is the absence of life. The Spirit is life
Adam later died physically, so did Christ.
The bible says Adam was a "figure" or a type of Christ.
There are many other similarities.
A perfect man is one who has a soul, a glorious body, and the Spirit of God (life).
Thermal Dynamics, the second law Was not in effect until after the fall
I declare fellows, you are exposing yourself as ones who have not a very good grasp about the person and work of Christ. How many verses would I have to quote that says Jesus Christ is fully human from his conception? Now here you are on this forum denying his humanity!
Lets agree to disagree on whether "tempted" means merely "testing" or something else, but let us please not deny that he is a member of the human race. God, our Father, will tell which of us is doing the blaspheming.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
God cannot die, but a man can die and save us from our sins!
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Yes, he is God but he emptied himself for our sakes!
Temptation from an external source (Satan in this case) does not prove that sin exists in the person tempted.
_ Whoa! C'mon fellows, learn to read and comprehend or refrain from posting. Good grief.
The bible plainly says Jesus Christ was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. Here you fellows are plainly denying it. Good grief! Djc49 will be slapping you on the back telling you how smart you are now.
In brief, the Watchtower organization maintains that: â€śAdam and Eve were created perfect by Godâ€¦â€ť
DJC49 wrote: Salvation is of the LORD and in Christ alone.
DJC49, you have changed the subject.
(Unless you think the kingdom of heaven and the church are the same and you think Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are presently sittnig in it)
If, so, this would surely be another indication that you are completely in the dark concerning the types, of which I spake.
Pew View wrote:
If Christ held the potential to sin, then WHY? _
Another question that might be asked "If he could not be tempted, why say he was?
You missed my whole point about Adam, the perfect man sinning. He had the Holy Spirit. He did not have a sin nature.
And BTW, the sin nature is the nature absent of the Holy Spirit.
We are told that Jesus received his human nature from Mary and his divine nature from God. What was his human nature" Body and soul. What was his divine nature? Holy Spirit!
He was 100% man and 100 percent God (and is).
Peter said believers are partakers of the divine nature. 2Pe 1:4 When did they become partakers of it. When they were born from above. How was that accomplished? By receiving the Holy Spirit. Jn 1:12-13
These things are not hard to understand but they are hard for some to believe!
from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; TDNT-3:501,394; n f
AV-church 115, assembly 3; 118
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly 1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating 1b) the assembly of the Israelites 1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously 1d) in a Christian sense 1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting 1d2) a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for orderâ€™s sake 1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body 1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth 1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
That was not the "Christian" church in the wilderness.
You have illustrated my point in the last point. There cannot be a "church of Jesus Christ," until after his death and resurrection as per the types.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. _
The major doctrines of ones NT theology MUST be compared with types of the OT. This is the ways of God that is hidden from false religions. The OT types are a confirmation of the truth in the NT. This is why I know calvinism is a great error. This is why I know your non - biblical covenant theology is a great error. This is how I know your doctrine of the church is a fantastic error.
Now don't take this criticism personally. I am telling you what I think.
Adam is a type (a figure as said in the NT). They were both haeds of families and responsible for their spiritual condition. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. They both have a bride taken from their sleeping bodies they died for. The similarities are staggering and instructive.
The Lone Wolf wrote: Mike, If Jesus was capable of sin, but refrained, then that would mean that he had the very sin nature we have. We inherited our sin nature through the bloodline of our fathers, not the mother.
Adam 1 was a perfect man. When God created him he said it was very good. He did not have a sin nature to deal with. That came later after he sinned. And that is the point! A perfect man made a decision to act independently of his omnipotent creator. That is the definition of sin. This required him to apply logic, reason, and intellect to his decision. This is especially true since God said he was not deceived into his action.
A perfect man with perfect knowledge would have understood the consequences. A perfect man who had walked and communed with God would have known about his character of mercy, love, and grace. A perfect man would have had perfect love for his bride and would have been willing to die for her so she might live. A perfect man would have known that God would have saved him some way but he would not have saved Eve so he partook of her sin and became guilty.
Does this sound familiar?
For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
These things are not easy to know but Mike is right. If there is a question, resort to plain sense of a text and it would make no sense if we are told he was in all points "tempted" like us but without sin if he was not tempted.
Therefore, it is safe to conclude that as a man he could be tempted but as God he could not. This brings us to another important statement.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
"SIN" is a verb. A verb denotes an action. Sin is defined two ways in Scripture. It is said to be "transgression of the law" and it is stated this way "Therefore, to him that KNOWETH to do right and doeth it not, to him it is sin. You cannot transgress a law without an action. The speed limit on the US highway beside my house has a posted 55 MPH limit. I will never transgress that law unless I go 56 miles an hour or more. It will be an action when I do it and I will be guilty and not before. If I see an infant or a toddler out there driving who cannot even read the speed sign much less abide by it, I will begin to think you are making sense.
All the controvery that God has with sinners in the first 3 chapters of romans where he proves they are all sinners are actions that are described as sins and it is for them he condemns them. There is no place in it that God has said men are condemned because they are born.
The wages of sin, not the sin nature, is death. All have "sinned", not all have been born and come short of the glory of God.
Your religios preduppositions are blinding your mind to simple truths and is causing you to see things in Scripture that are not there nad tofail to see what is plain truth and reason.