Will Friedum wrote: We haven't had too much discussion. I haven't even made use of your keywords. Like I said, I'm just asking simple questions and I don't feel you are answering appropriately, which is only leaving me more confused. [Or possibly all the more clear that Calvinism is of the devil] As for "harmitology," I'll assume that means the study of harmony.(?) And I don't know what a Pelagian is. Maybe somebody else can help me out.
Harmitology is the doctrine of sin. A Pelagian believes that man's moral ability was not affected by the fall of Adam. Roman Catholics are semi-pelagian's. They believe that his moral ability is depraved but that the physical act of baptism by a priest restores man's ability to follow God's Law. Arminianism believes that man is totally depraved and has lost this moral ability, but with the help of prevenient grace, which is given to every man, allows man to believe in Christ. And then there is the Reformed view. Man is totally depraved and unable to believe in Christ. Only by the Holy Spirit regenerating the elect do they believe in Christ.
Will Friedum wrote: I think you're only complicating things Rogerant. I'm just asking simple questions so I can understand better. Regardless of any "primary" or "secondary" cause, the bottom line is that only God is the creator of life. And if he creates life that can do nothing but sin, then it appears he would be unjust in damning them because its not possible for the sinners to believe in God and not sin. So to claim that the sinners are only getting what they deserve and what they have chosen seems very incorrect.
I am complicating things? We have gone from a discussion about predestination and reprobation and you have changed the discussion to a debate over total depravity. Your view on harmitology appears to be Pelagian. Am I correct?
Will Friedum wrote: Thank you again. So if God made all of us after Adam and we are not capable of being sinless, then God made us sinners (or with a sin nature that can only sin). Correct?
Are you saying that God has offered mercy and grace to all since Genesis 3:16? Still wondering about love too.
God created Adam from scratch (primary cause) Adam knew Eve and had children (primary cause). So you could say that god created Cain and Abel, but it would be by secondary causes. But Cain and Abel were born "in sin". Adam was created with moral free agency, but lost it at the fall. Such has been the case in man ever since. See Romans 5:12
No god has not offered mercy and grace to all since Geneses 3:16. He was not required to. I did not say all anywhere. He only offered it effectually to his elect.
The focus of His love was Israel in the OT, but now it is not confined to the physical nation of Israel alone.
Will Friedum wrote: Rogerant, To keep it simple here, God forces people to love and obey him. Rogerant says yes. Man can make robots and puppets that do what he says too. Rogerant says yes. So, I'm still perplexed about how man can truly love God if man is forced. Rogerant says: "He did not make them sinners that they became. WE make us the sinners that we became." This statement implies that man is capable of being sinless. Please clarify further.
NO! God does not FORCE people to love and obey him! I have never said that. The words convince, compel, draw to not mean force.
Man is not compelled by God to sin. When man is in rebellion all God has to do is tell him not to do something, and man will do it in response. Have you never raised a teenager?
No man is not capable of being sinless. But if man wanted to try to justify himself by his own works, he must be sinless. God since Genesis 3:16 has held out His hand with mercy and grace. Man has rejected the free gift of salvation.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: Rant 1: "And it is because of the fact that the reprobate desire not to believe and give thanks to God that God has the right (the divine prerogative) to do with them as He wills." This is a matter of justice, not an arbitrary prerogative. So he will do with them what justice demands. Rant 2: "..The reprobate do not want God's Holy love in Christ and they never will. They despise God's sovereign love and His right to do what He wants with them. ...." This seems a most odd statement, when you have already acknowledged that both lumps deserve the same fate! Would those from the lump unto honor have had a different attitude and viewpoint? If not, why predicate this solely to the reprobate?
Rant 1 response: Justice demanded that God judge Pharaoh, but in order that God's Glory and Power be revealed, He endured Pharaoh's disobedience and hardened his heart, until his sin was complete.
Rant 2 response: Both lumps are the same, dead in trespasses and sins, apart from God's predestinating the elect to eternal life and placing them "in Christ" at the cross. Then the Holy Spirit regenerates them and then they come to Christ.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: Roger I think you are losing the picture. You rave and rant about the reprobate, but if the 2 lumps are from the same clay, which you concede, then they are equally vile before God, and equally deserving of the same end. Surely the point of the passage is that "God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and whom he will he hardeneth".. in other words the basis of one's election is known to God alone.
Ranting and raving? What distinguishes between your posts and mine? Mine are arrogant and yours are gentle?
Are you offended by the word reprobate? I am not any different than any other lump of clay apart from God's grace. What distinguishes you from any other?
Calvinist Understanding wrote: Roger In your last post - are you arguing that God made the reprobate the sinners that they became in order to damn them?
He did not make them sinners that they became. WE make us the sinners that we became. And it is because of the fact that the reprobate desire not to believe and give thanks to God that God has the right (the divine prerogative) to do with them as He wills. Note he shapes two lumps of the same batch of clay. Clay is dead, inert material. There is no difference between the two lumps, they are both dead in trespasses and sins. Just that one God rests is aprobation on one lump and the other lump reprobation.
The reprobate do not want God's Holy love in Christ and they never will. They despise God's sovereign love and His right to do what He wants with them. And unless you recognize this nature of God's character, you won't want to spend eternity with this type of God either.
Will Friedum wrote: If the Spirit "convinces" and "compels" and the sinner cannot resist or refuse, then to me that amounts to force and the creation of a robot which cannot truly love. Man can create the same.
If it is true that God has â€śmercyâ€ť on whom He wills, and also â€śhardensâ€ť whom He wills, then what becomes of human responsibility? In such a case men are nothing better than puppets, and if this be true then it would be unjust for God to â€śfind faultâ€ť with His helpless creatures. Mark the word â€śthenâ€ťâ€”Thou wilt say then unto meâ€”he states the (false) inference or conclusion which the objector draws from what the apostle had been saying. And mark, my reader, the apostle readily saw the doctrine he had formulated would raise this very objection, and unless what we have written throughout this book provokes, in some at least, (all whose carnal minds are not subdued by divine grace) the same objection, then it must be either because we have not presented the doctrine which is set forth in Romans 9, or else because human nature has changed since the apostleâ€™s day.
"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
Lurker wrote: I don't believe Roger used the words "God forces people..." Did God the Son "force" Paul on Damascus Road?
Thank you for clarifying Lurker. I have never used the term, forced people. People willfully choose existence apart from the Holiness of God and will gladly be removed from His presence.
I believe that the Holy Spirit convinces and "compels" the elect to come to Christ. He reveals the beauty of the mercy of Christ, and the ugliness of their own sins and then the elect loath themselves.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and COMPEL them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Will Friedum wrote: Anyone can help me out with my previous question if they desire.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Note here, Paul rebukes your very question. Who are YOU o man...
If you still have questions, I recommend that you read the following chapter dealing with the subject.
â€śJoshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Mosesâ€ť (Joshua 11:18-20).
What could be plainer than this? Here was a large number of Canaanites whose hearts the Lord hardened, whom He had purposed to utterly destroy, to whom He showed â€śno favor â€ť.
Calvinist Understanding wrote: Mike this is a debate amongst calvinists
That the Lord made all, perhaps every reader of this book will allow: that He made all for Himself is not so widely believed. That God made us, not for our own sakes, but for Himself; not for our own happiness, but for His glory; is, nevertheless, repeatedly affirmed in Scriptureâ€” Revelation 4:11. But Proverbs 16:4 goes even farther: it expressly declares that the Lord made the wicked for the Day of Evil: that was His design in giving them being. But why ? Does not Romans 9:17 tell us, â€śFor the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earthâ€ť!
Clyde wrote: Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (James 2:21-22) Hmm... not quite as easy a topic as some make it seem.
Romans chapter 4 deals with how we are justified (declared righteous) in the courtroom of God the judge. Romans 4 deals with our vertical relationship with God as judge.
James chapter 2 deals with our witness before the rich and the poor man who have come into the church. James writes that we are justified by our works as christians, before others. So in other words, since you ARE a Christian, now work out your faith before others with works, not showing any partiality amongst those who come into the church. This is established by James writing "What doth if profit, my brethren though a man SAY he hath faith and not works" and "Yea, a man may SAY, Thou hast faith"
So then, among others one must show or witness to others by the way you live, that you are effectually saved.
Patience wrote: My dear Sir, Justification started in Genesis when God killed an animal - shed blood - and provided a covering for Adam and Eve. It continued with the sacrificial system of the Jewish people - looking forward to the time when the promised Messiah would shed His own blood to save His people from their sins.
So, justification is not confined to Romans 4. It is the thread throughout Scripture.
Those are all very good verses in regards to God's work in ATONEMENT, but none of them deal with what justifies a sinner before a Holy God.
Romans 4 does in it's entirety. The old testament had types and shadows of what justified a sinner before God, the Abrahamic Covenant in Gen 15 and Psalm 32:1. Do you know the difference between Atonement and Justification?
Patience wrote: Tell me dear sir, what does Rev. 22:11 mean, "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is RIGHTEOUS still PRACTICE righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." IOW, if our righteousness is totally, and only IMPUTED - a legal transfer, if you will - what could possibly be the implication of this verse?
Thank you Mr 49, but may I also add:
Dear Patience: Do you determine your doctrine of justification from the book of Revelation as do the JW's? Or do you determine it from Romans 4 where Paul goes into great detail and deals with the subject in it's entirety like all bible believing protestants do?
Patience wrote: If there are none righteous according to Romans 3:10, then WHO are the RIGHTEOUS in 1Pet 4:18?
The righteous in 1 Peter 4:18 are the beloved in whom Peter is talking to in 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange...
Who are the Beloved? the persons to whom the letter was written as identified in 1:1 "Peter...to the strangers scattered thoughout..., Elect according to the forenknowledge of God the Father through sanctification of the Spirit, UNTO obedience,,,Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again...Who are kept by the power of God...
Yes, the letter is written to the elect of God, those who has begotten us by his predestinating love. In that we have become the Beloved of God, from the foundation of the world. The reprobate have not received this love.
The elect have received the imputed righteousness of Christ, therefore they are now consided righteous!
John UK wrote: I'm sorry Biblion, but Jesus gives justification and sanctification as a package in salvation. No-one ever got justified without any good works following, and even these works, as I have already said, were fore-ordained by God. To Jesus be glory, yes! He has all the glory. Amen and Amen.
Your ability convolute, blur, shroud, mask, darken, veil, confuse, complicate, obfuscate and disguise the clear distinction of the doctrines of limited atonement, justification, sanctification and repentence eclipse the majestic sophistires of the Holy Roman Church and Barak Obama.
I don't think anyone here really understands where you stand on any of these doctrines.
This is undoubtably the result ignorant disdain for those who have gone before us and have studied this topics in depth and have documented these important doctrines down in creeds and confessions.
SC wrote: Incidentally would you care to argue with James when he wrote: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Jas 2.21 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Jas 2.24
You can't mix Romans 4,(justified by faith apart from works) and James 2, (faith plus works). Otherwise the entire bible contradicts itself.
The question is, who is the audience that these authors are addressing. In Romans 4 which is dealing with being justified before God (the judge) we are talking about justification. In James 2 the audience is, the rich and the poor man that have come into the church. So you display or justify your faith before them in your witness to them. If you email me I will send you a paper dealing with "does Romans 4 contradict James 2.
pew view wrote: There is no such thing as a 4 point calvinist. Either you are and can perceive the TULIP, and it's links, - or you are not. Simple eh?
Just as there is no such thing as a 1,2,3 point Calvinist. There is no middle ground.
You are either still standing at the foot of Mount Sinai or you have crossed the casm of judgment(red sea) in the Ark, and stand on Mount Zion! Unfortunatley standing in between, you have stumbled on the 12 stones lying on the bottom of the Jordon River Joshua 3-5.