Christopher000 wrote: 1. ...For the record, I don't own any guns, and I don't plan on ever buying one. .. 2. Some seem to think America is like the wild, wild West.
1. Hello Christopher, that's a real interesting testimony.
2. I get a lot of my ideas about America by listening to my friends here on the forum. Just over the last two days one has dreamed about getting her bedroom door kicked in at 3.00am, causing her to reach for her shooter; another just now has spoken about the fear of the druggie next door coming round and kicking her door in, and she wants to get her children trained up in the use of firearms.
Here in Wales we aren't even allowed to carry a penknife, but we seem to sleep pretty good at night. Now why is that?
Herbal Mama wrote: B, you are a work of art. ūüėāūüėā
Ephesians 2:10 KJV (10)¬† For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Laughing, even with tears, at the work of Almighty God in the life of a human being? You ought be ashamed of yourself. Sister B won't be much bothered by your remark, but you need to think what the Lord Jesus Christ thinks about it.
Of course, if you were serious, and you really do believe that Sister B is a great work of art being formed by her Saviour, then I heartily agree, and wish there were more like her on the forum.
Carry on. _______________
I'd just like to take the opportunity to mention that the NT is chock full of dangers and trials and deaths for Christians, blood being spilt and so on, and so far in my research I have not found any self-defence from the Christians where they fought back. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Jesus taught them to flee when persecuted, go from town to town. Maybe that's too wimpish for Americans, they are brought up to fight and then fight some more. But Jesus has other plans they know not of.
The program focuses on a Jesus who is not the Jesus of the Bible. "Songs of Praise" loves an ecumenical Jesus (who cannot be the Jesus of the Bible). It has a Jesus who accepts homosexual marriage (who cannot be the Jesus of the Bible). It promotes a Jesus who loves CCM and rock worship bands (who cannot be the Jesus of the Bible).
In other words, "Songs of Praise" has created a religious program for the religious public, who do not want to follow the biblical Jesus, but who want to have a nice life, easy and smooth, without too much swearing or drinking, not too much adultery or fighting, plenty of charitable work to soothe the conscience and increase self-righteousness, plenty of jolly sing-along hymns for the older ones and raucous heavy metal songs for the younger ones, plenty of religion, especially the church calendar with all its feast days, getting babies regenerate by baptism, plenty of liturgical spookiness with statues in the sanctuary, processions and marches, ornaments and candles, lots of sentiment and emotion-tinglers, a real fantasy world under the guise of Christian work and witness, but all the time it is a......
Far from ignoring your OT "proof texts", what I would like to know is, is the Nehemiah Principle applicable to what is happening in India right now? I have pinched this from the article on India thread:-
[Over the course of just one month, a Christian family was beaten for bringing an upper-caste Hindu to the Lord, a church that had been preaching the gospel for sixteen years was demolished overnight, and a house church was driven from place to place by Hindu radicals intent on disrupting their worship.]
[‚ÄúOne day prior, Konda Naresh, who claims to be a leading member in the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), threatened the believers at the construction site, saying that he will demolish the structure,‚ÄĚ Pastor Suryam, whose Fellowship of Indigenous Gospel Churches congregation was scattered by the demolition of their building, told International Christian concern. ...]
You are the one who brought up the Nehemiah Principle. Should these Christians arm themselves with weapons and fight off anyone who tries to prevent the rebuilding program? _________
Going through the rest of the comments, I see the Yee Ha, Gung Ho, and Giddy Up style comments have been resurrected. But my doctrine is sola scripturally obtained. 2 Tim 3:16
Just a Guy wrote: John UK says... And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" This verse is for martyrs brother...
JAG, a couple of things here, to do with tradition again. The word "martyr" conjures up in our minds a certain thing placed there by tradition and an unfortunate translation. You can equally put "witness" there. So if you do not wish to be a martyr, you can still be a witness to Jesus Christ and end up under the altar with all the other witnesses who were killed. Acts 22:20 for further study.
Secondly, I asked if you expected any American pastors to be there. What did Walmart have to do with it? The thread is about churches paying for security training in the use of firearms in case the church is attacked.
It's funny really. In one breath, people tell me that the day of my death is written down by God and I cannot affect it no matter what I eat or drink or how much exercise I do or don't do. Then they tell me that an ungodly wretch can take my life away, out of the will of God, to my great amazement and puzzlement.
Carol says: "Believe me if armed thugs are kicking in your door at 3:00 a:m if you want to quote Scripture fine, we‚Äôll be praying and reaching for the side-iron."
The sovereign God has even the devil on a lease, so you can be assured that his lackeys have to gain permission before they can do anything to a child of God. Or do you not believe that God orders all things according to the counsel of his own will and purpose?
It is a big mistake to imagine that Jesus was "captured" and then "crucified" by the will of men.
Acts 2:23-24 KJV (23)¬† Him [Jesus], being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (24)¬† Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Matthew 10:29 KJV (29)¬† Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Will you hearken to the words of Jesus? Please? Do these words mean absolutely nothing to you?
Ah, tradition and culture - the two big deceivers, which drown men and women, removing their faith in the living God.
Revelation 6:9-10 KJV (9)¬† And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10)¬† And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Do you think there will be any American pastors here?
Will the following exhortation have any relevance to an American congregation with full security?
Romans 12:19 KJV (19)¬† Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
What I am hoping is that someone here will come to see that the Lord is a real person who really involves himself in real people's lives, but that he does not say the Christian life is easy nor necessarily long, but may in fact be very short, because those who are born once will always persecute those who are born twice, and that those who truly follow their Master will suffer in the same way as their Master.
But those who do not wish for this, will always try to create a Jesus to suit their desire for an easy lifestyle without persecution.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: You‚Äôre not going like my answer. Shoot first and ask questions later.
It's not me you need to be worried about. It is the Lord Jesus Christ. There is only one Jesus who saves, and it is the biblical Jesus. All other Jesus's are created in the minds of men who make a Jesus which suits them. This is why homosexuals say that Jesus accepts them; they have made their own Jesus. Idolaters say that Jesus accepts them, but they have made their own Jesus. All over the world, professing Christians have made a Jesus which suits their particular lifestyle or set of beliefs.
But a close look at scripture - the word of God - soon puts to flight the fancies of men. The biblical Jesus, and his life, and his lifestyle, is seen clearly in the four gospels, and modern western man is without excuse. The words are clear and unequivocal. The teaching of Jesus is altogether righteous and difficult to accomplish. But believing and trusting in the correct Jesus is crucial to salvation. It is in this that many go astray, and the bottom line is always that they will never deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow Jesus Christ. It is far too costly for them.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: I am not on the page and never have been on the page of whether it is right to die for your faith. We agree there. I am speaking about self defense from a random shooter and you keep changing the subject to self defense against those who are specifically persecuting someone for their faith in Christ. We‚Äôre not on the same page
Ah, so herein lies the difficulty. I have been waiting for this opportunity to come up, and I hope you will see the problem bro.
You agree that Muslims hate and will persecute Christians given half a chance? You know that Muslims regard "the west" as Christian? And you know that 9/11 was a strike against Christians?
You get a lone guy come in your church brandishing a weapon. Two things may happen.
1. He may start firing immediately, in which case you don't know whether he is a nutter randomly killing anyone, or a religious persecutor killing specifically Christians.
2. He may shout something like Allahu Akhba (I don't know the actual spelling sorry) which means God (Allah) is Great, so you know he is a Muslem. And then he starts shooting.
And you say you respond differently each time? Are all the congregation agreed on that?
I have Christian brethren and sisters in Nigeria who are being shot dead by religious fanatical Muslims, as they attend their church services, and I ask you what you would say to them, and you say, "John we're not even on the same page."
[After 11 worshippers were shot dead during Shabbat morning services at a synagogue in Pittsburgh, the city's Jewish community has added layers of defenses.
Since that October attack, congregations that once felt guns were unnecessary or inappropriate have welcomed armed security, said Brad Orsini, security director for The Jewish Federation of Greater Pittsburgh. But arming worshippers is not an approach the former FBI agent recommends.
"Carrying a firearm is an awesome responsibility," said Orsini, who served in the Marine Corps before his nearly three decades with the FBI. "Because you have the ability to have a carry concealed permit does not make you a security expert. Because you have a firearm doesn't necessarily mean you should be carrying it at the church on the weekend."] (from the article)
"once felt guns were unnecessary or inappropriate...."
I found this interesting. A change is occurring. Is change good? Or is change a sign that we are going backwards?
Brother US, what would you say to the Christian churches in Nigeria who are being regularly attacked and killed by armed people specifically because they are Christians? This is a serious question which may become relevant in the USA also.
Bro US, surely you do not believe we are under a theocracy now, do you? When did it change? I'll let you answer that.
New covenant principles:
The Roman Empire is ruling, Jews are given certain freedoms regarding Jewish laws.
Acts 26:9-11 KJV (9)¬† I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. (10)¬† Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. (11)¬† And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
Saul of Tarsus had authority to do this. And saints did not defend themselves against him, even unto death.
So brother, your church takes up this offer of training, and arms every member of the congregation, realising that you'd better not upset any one of them lest they break out against the pastor during the sermon.
Feds come into the meeting to arrest everyone. But someone doesn't believe it is Feds, but impostors, and they start firing. Feds fire back and big gunfight ensues. No contest.
CJ wrote: I think it would be a good idea if someone could place images of abortions and mutilated infant bodies on billboards so people would see the realities of the outcome of the woman's right to choose. I know it would be shocking and offensive, but that's the point. It is all that and so much more. In the days of heinous child labor in the U.S. it took a photo campaign to bring change. A picture is worth a thousand words. God help us and please put an end to the sanctioned murder of our children!
Too right about picture power CJ.
Article on worldwide cigarette packaging and graphic pictures.
"According to the FDA, 34.3 million US adults and nearly 1.4 million young people in the US, ages 12-17, currently smoke cigarettes. Despite declines in cigarette smoking, tobacco use is still the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the US, killing about 480,000 Americans every year - more than alcohol, HIV, car accidents, illegal drugs, murders and suicides combined."
Good morning Christopher, here is an aside, just for you bro. You know how tradition is very powerful, and forms our thinking on most things Christian? Yes?
How about asking God for journeying mercies?
Is it mere tradition or definite faith?
If it is mere tradition, then when we arrive safely, we praise the Lord but do not really mean it. What we mean is, "Didn't I drive real good today!"
If it is definite faith, then when we arrive safely, we praise the Lord and mean it. That van you noticed off the side of the road crunched into a tree, with a tow truck getting into position, and an ambulance slowly moving off? It was being driven at speed by a drug crazed nutter, coming the other way to what you were driving. The Lord, who knows all things, saw the nail in the road, saw the blowout coming, saw the trajectory across the carriageway the van would take, right into the path of your vehicle, killing you instantly.
But God said your time is not yet.
So he took off the van's wheel before it reached the nail, and it went off the road before you even got there.
Can the Lord pull off wheels by his Spirit? Exodus 14:25
But when God says your time is up, do you think to prevent him?
I can see that for the benefit of the reconstructionists and dominionists, we are going to have to do a New Testament Bible Study on this subject together, lest you begin Temple sacrifices and do three pilgrimages to Jerusalem every year, and all the other old covenant principles which are now supposed to be obsolete, being fulfilled in Christ, and which ought never be seen again.
We'll do that later....
But here's a good text to begin. Jesus said:
Mark 8:35 KJV (35)¬† For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Christopher, the answer to your question is: When some people attend their church, they do so for Jesus Christ's sake and the gospel. When others attend a church service, it is not for Jesus Christ's sake, nor is it for the gospel. The former are Christians and the latter are pretend-Christians. Does that answer?
Dr. Tim wrote: John, if a demoniac enters our church to get saved, then hopefully he gets saved. If he enters to shoot our wives, children and grandchildren, he gets blown away. What could be fairer than that?
Tim, you are asking what is fair?
You need to ask the Lord himself about this, as I think he's the only one who could explain it to you.
There is certainly a great similarity between Darwin's 'Survival of the Fittest', and the American Culture.
What folks are not realising is, that the thread is about what a church ought to do to protect its faith and witness, including training its adherents to use weaponry such as guns to shoot and kill anyone coming in during a church service brandishing weaponry designed to kill people there.
It is easy to blur the lines and digress into personal protection.
Bro US, the difficulty here is that the law in the UK is somewhat different from the law in the USA. The reason I mentioned vigilantes, is because I imagine most Americans are brought up on a diet of "Vengeance" westerns, where a lone settler family is attacked while husband is out working, and when he gets home and is heartbroken, he vows to spend the rest of his life seeking out the perps and killing them one by one. Watching such a film creates in the human heart an empathetic feeling, and most of the second half of the film is taken up rejoicing in death, as one by one, the bandits are tortured and slowly put to death.
But this is the ungodly way.
Jesus came to save wicked sinners, even a demoniac with 100 devils in residence. A naked man living in a cemetery, a human being with immense strength. Is he worth saving? Jesus thought so.
Mike wrote: John, they were taken by Paul *because they were Christian,* and imprisoned because they were Christian, which puts a different light on it, no? They became martyrs for Christ. On the other hand, the looney who enters a church building to kill because he wants to kill isn't doing it because they are Christian, any more than the one who enters a school to kill is doing it because they are students, nor the one who shoots from a building is doing it because they are pedestrians. He is wanting to kill them because he wants to kill them. No Christian martyrdom involved. Just evil for it's own sake, and should be avoided if possible, or stopped if necessary.
Okay Mike thanks, let's run with that a while.
As far as I know, in every country of the world it is illegal to kill someone. That is law. And who enforces the law? The entire legal system. Who are vigilantes? They are people who take the law into their own hands. They do not have authority to be the entire legal system, yet they exercise what they call justice. Are they accepted by God? How does it tally with Romans 13?
BTW, you are saying it is okay to die for Jesus Christ, if that is the cause of your death.