The Lone Wolf wrote: Are you willing to humble yourself and empty yourself before God? Are you willing to recognize your utter total depravity before God of any moral goodness to offer Him in exchange for salvation? Are you willing to recognize the righteousness of Christ as satisfying God's requirement for Heaven? Are you willing to recognize Christ as God's satisfaction for justice that he paid on the sinner's behalf? Are you willing to repent of sin and faith toward God?
Now don't get mad at me for pointing this out friend but all those things you mention above are "conditions" for salvation. You are the man who pumps "unconditional" salvation.
But, I do agree with you, salvation does have a condition and it is none of the above. It is faith alone in Jesus Christ. This is the lone condition for us to be saved.
Lets agree here. There is no way under heaven a reformed Baptist is able to be consistent with reformed doctrines in his evangelistic thrust. The prebys, maybe, but not the Baptists.
I can distinguish between the presbys and the baptists in just a few posts. There is a great deal of difference but you all put your head in the sand and ignore it.
The Lone Wolf wrote: With man it is impossible, but with God all thengs are possible. He needs to come to the end of himself and see himself as God sees him, dead spiritually in tresspasses and sin, lost, totally depraved of any moral goodness to offer up to God in exchange for salvation. He has to come to the point of seeing Christ as the only means of salvation as the satisfaction for God's justice and as payment for his sin debt. Then and only then can he begin to trust soley in the grace and mercy of God for his soul.
See! This is so frustrating to me. Incognito, the obvious presby, thinks I am probably not one of the elect and he probably joins God in delighting over my predestination to hell. Just read his comments. Lone Wolf, the obvious Baptist, is speaking to me as if I could be persuaded to believe even though he pumps pre world election to salvation.
Lone Wolf is in far worse shape of the two, if you ask me, but if I believed what he says he believes I think I might want to shoot myself. Read what he wrote. It seems election is not the issue at all, but coming to the end of oneself so he might trust in God's offer of pardon.
I am sorry Lurker, I did not see a question. Would you mind asking it more clearly?
Oh; Oh: I see it now. I thought that was rhetorical. I am sorry. But here is the answer.
Jesus made this statement and it has never been amended or altered. He said we must believe in God to be saved.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Here what God says: He says we must believe in Christ to be saved.
Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
There are testimonies of different things designed to persuade of the credentials of Jesus Christ. The responsibility of the witnesses is to believe. The responsibility of God is to save because he said he would.
Thank you for the input, Lurker, but would you mind making it personal? How do you know that you personally are elected to be saved from among all the multitude of them that are created for the day of destruction, many of whom are very involved in the Christian religion, in it's various sects and divisions? Do you have God saying that you are elect?
It is a dangerous religion that excludes others from tasting of God's wonderful and gracious salvation and to shut them out. It is a prideful thing to think that God favors one sinner over another sinner when he says they are all unprofitable. It is a scary thing to claim one is a member of the elect when religion can counterfeit anything that God does like turning the staff into a serpent in Exod 7: 10-12 and the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desparetely wicked.
The only safegaurd is to have a personal testimony that at some point in ones life they came to see themselves as offending a thrice holy God by breaking his law and becoming deserving of his condemnation and sentence to hell and casting themselves upon his mercy by believing on Jesus Christ as the only way to be saved from his wrath. They must have a God that cannot lie and has made a pronmise to them that he will save them and that that is the basis of how he will do it. If they have no promise, they have no salvation.
Many men are in hell today whose religious practice far exceeds some who comment on this site.
Christ died for the unjust, 1 Pe 3:18 He died for the ungodly Ro 5:6 He died for every man He 2:9
He has promised to save those that will ask him to. Ro 10:13
DJC49 and others claims to be elected before the foundation of the world to be saved in this present age .... but he cannot produce a single verse that has God telling him that he personally is elected to be saved. The standard statement is that no one knows who the elect are. All elect assumes they are from the foundation of personal human experience. This is a dangerous foundation by itself. ________
Thank you Jille for posting the statement of regeneration. Please do not be offended but I am sure I would not want to show up at the judgment of a thrice holy God with that statement standing between me and hell. If you would be comfortable with it, then I say, hey, we all make our choices and live by them. _
You wrote; and JD, I know I am saved, only because God has done the work.
I am nearly sure the Mormon and JW would say the same and I am positive the arminian would. Don't you understand that we need God saying you are saved? "It is God that justifieth." Ro 8:33.
Now, I trust you are saved because God says that whosoever believes the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be saved and that seems to be your testimony.....and you are a member of "whosoever".
Now that is a promise that you can take to the judgment and it will keep you out of the Lake of Fire.
Thank you, Jille, for the links. The author said this:
"Dr. Lim's point is obvious: many approach the blood of Christ today assuming that God is obligatory in his grace."
It is obligatory if God made a promise that whosoever will may come and take of the water of life freely. He did that! Has bound himself by an oath under the terms of the New Covenant. He is obliged!
Also I read the statement of faith of that ministry and I am not sure a person can be saved under that statement. I hope he can. God knows. I am just stating my personal concern. You may disagree.
Vessels of mercy article says: (1). If God decides not to work in a man to will and to do according to God's will, He decides to leave the man to will and to do according to his own will. When God effectually operates upon the human will, it is election. When God does not effectually operate upon the human will, it is reprobation.
I must ask you, Jille, how can you be sure that you personally are one of the elect in this present evil age? Gal 1. God says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it? You must have a promise from God in his word that you are elect and saved. You can not trust your own heart. You must not trust your own heart. Satan is a great deceiver!
simplesolution wrote: Why not email him and ask him directly-the ability to do so is part of sermonaudio's service-you can actually contact the church and pastor directly. Simple, eh?
Oh, simple, you have missed my point. Nothing against the good preacher (he is not a pastor), he is probably in better shape than the presbys (I think he is a baptist). The presbys seem to be the ones who are more likely to magnify the "hatred" character of God than other reformed. Now, don't take that personally and feel like I am being unfair here, it is just my personal observation and you could say opinion over time.
But my question is a fair question I think. I did not make it up that several have told me here on this forum that God has created the wicked for the day of destruction, that he does not love them, that he hates them, that he has elected them from before the foundation of the world to be condemned and because of that he has made no way of escape. Their motto should be, "eat drink and be merry for tommorrow you die".
No, the preacher was just an example of the prevailing doctrine, thats all. I did not mean it to be a criticism of him specifically and I feared some would take my question wrongly.
I do not desire this question to be offensive but some things bewilder me. I read the statements of the Calvinists and I have read the exchange between two of them on the subject of "Is it proper to tell sinners that God loves them". I have just downloaded a sermon by one of the most popular speakers on this forum, a doctrines of grace man, and listrened to part of his sermon. He began his message by confirming his position that God will only save those whom he has chosen but he spent the remainder of his time (that I listened to him) lamenting the fact that men will not believe God and because of that they will face the great white throne judgment. I had the sensation that he would break out into tears at times, which is the proper emotion for the lost, but it perplexes me how God can be happy to create the wicked for the day of destruction and hate them while they are on earth but the elect who are admonished to have the mind of Christ, are constantly shedding tears and speaking as if they can be saved if they will but believe?
Does anyone understand how frustrating it is for folks like me to figure this contradiction out?
Maybe there is an answer in the rest of the sermnon. I will listen to see.
Joh 14:2 In my Fatherâ€™s house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also
Now, compare this passage to the following one!
Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
No doubt this city is occupied by the church, because Jesus said we would be with him where he is!
Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it (New Jerusalem)
Now, notice very carefully!
Re 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
What? There are nations, kings, of the earth in the eternal state?
Oh my! There is still an Israel and other saved nations. God's word is true!
DJC49 wrote: The sinless/deathless world was never to be!
This is it! Fatalism at it's very worst! God had no contingency plan in case Adam would have chosen to not eat of the tree. Why? Because according to DJC49 and his tribe Adam was created for the purpose of falling.
Talking about a god that fits in a theological box, I think we have found him. Thank heaven Adam was at the very least one of the elect whom God chose to save, huh? _
The fact of the matter is that God tells us what is happeniong when sin is taken away and we have the perfect state. The church, the lamb's wife, Re 21:9-10, New Jerusalem, ascends out of heaven (a satelite city) and lightens the nations who dwell in the light of it (The throne of God is there).
Life (perfect life) goes on and procreation continues as well for eternity). It was the plan from the beginning!
Lu 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
God knows what he is doing! If one wants to be a part of it, he must gather with him, else he is scattering abroad.
Contender, I am sorry, I do not understand your point!
Quote, I am sorry, I do not understand your point. _
You speak as though we disagree just a little bit when in fact we have discussed all the malor doctrines of the Christian faith and we disagree on them all. Our differences are "fundamental" to the person, word, amd work of God, IMO.
Consider the post by Quote, for instance. He implies that God created Adam to sin. I would never believe that but would believe God created him perfect and with free will with the possibility of making an independent choice and then put him in the position of testing (He did the same for the angels and 1/3 of them fell and the rest were sealed in righteousness). It is right and proper for us to consider what would have been especially when we can read about the Last Adam and how he restored what Adam lost and know that our great God has the power and wisdom to accomplish his purpose in spite of opposition of Satanic powers and sinful men. We can start reading at Matthew to see how he did it. The last two chapters in Scripture says it is done.
Each of us are capable of the following choice!
Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.