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Do you understand & believe in 'the Doctrine of Original Sin'? Created: 12/16/2008 | Last Vote: 7 hours ago | Comment: 5 months ago

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6/9/09 4:32 PM San Jose John  | San Jose, CA    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments Years ago I remember being taught that any one of us, in Adam's place, would do no better than Adam did in his efforts to resist sin. Therefore when Adam fell, we all fell. Adam's sin essentially validated the inability of the entire human race to resist sin, and thus we all became sinful IN adam. Even so, subsequent sin, committed on our part, is OUR responsibility to confess and repent from and not Adam's, of course. 5/5/09 4:20 PM Orthodixie  | South    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments The question is incomplete and poorly phrased. The general definition of "Original Sin" comes from Augustine's teaching of guilt, later expanded by Anselm, which was accepted by Roman Catholicism and the Reformation Churches to this day. The early church did not teach this but insted understood "Ancestrial Sin". We are not "guilty" of Adam's sin but our own. The fall made us mortal and inclined to sin so we can correctly say-All have sined". 12/28/08 3:29 PM Falconer    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments WCF Catechism Q25: Wherein consists the sinfulness of that estate whereinto man fell? A25: The sinfulness of that estate whereinto man fell, consisteth in the guilt of Adam's first sin,[1] the want of that righteousness wherein he was created, and the corruption of his nature, whereby he is utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite unto all that is spiritually good, and wholly inclined to all evil, and that continually;[2] which is commonly called Original Sin, and from which do proceed all actual transgressions.[3] 1. Rom. 5:12, 19 2. Rom. 3:10-19; 5:6; 8:7-8; Eph. 2:1-3; Gen. 6:5 3. James 1:14-15; Matt. 15:19 Q26: How is original sin conveyed from our first parents unto their posterity? A26: Original sin is conveyed from our first parents unto their posterity by natural generation, so as all that proceed from them in that way are conceived and born in sin.[1] 1. Psa. 51:5; Job 14:4; 15:14; John 3:6 12/25/08 9:26 AM webwatch    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments The good news is not only that Christ can fix our bad record (legal guilt) but that he can fix our bad heart (moral depravity). Our bad heart must be fixed; otherwise it would stay comfortable with sinning and be unfit for heaven. (using thoughts borrowed from Pastor Albert N. Martin) 12/22/08 4:49 PM Mike  | New York    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments pew view wrote: Good answer Mike. You know you really should become a Calvinist. It's the only way to go. Aw Mike I didn't know you cared. Merry Christmas to you too. BTW I see you're getting the white stuff blown at you at the moment. Must be real cool. A Calvinist? Who, me? Pew View, you know very well I have no free will to choose such a path! We surely are getting the white stuff. In my neighborhood, we have been granted a 6 inch fall Wednesday, a 12 inch Friday, a 5 inch Saturday. And it's a mite cold. Now we're getting wind to move it around a bit. Fortunately I have a new shovel. This global warming has got to be dealt with! 12/22/08 4:31 PM pew view    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments Mike wrote: Perhaps it's the way they thought of things back then. And the flesh does serve sin. But we might remember this: Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Perhaps the mind gets renewed, because it is out of the mind that bad things hatch that the flesh serves, making it evident that renewing is needed, that we may have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. Good answer Mike. You know you really should become a Calvinist. It's the only way to go. Mike wrote: PS Merry Christmas! Aw Mike I didn't know you cared. Merry Christmas to you too. BTW I see you're getting the white stuff blown at you at the moment. Must be real cool. 12/22/08 4:13 PM Mike  | New York    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments pew view wrote: Mike in relation to your question what do you think Paul meant here? Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring *AGAINST* THE LAW OF MY MIND, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. It seems that Paul detached the source of sin from the mind??? Also 25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Perhaps it's the way they thought of things back then. And the flesh does serve sin. But we might remember this: Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Perhaps the mind gets renewed, because it is out of the mind that bad things hatch that the flesh serves, making it evident that renewing is needed, that we may have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. PS Merry Christmas! 12/22/08 11:39 AM Castanet    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments No Original Sin Passed On wrote: Romans 5:12 elaborates itself. Sin passed upon all men FOR THAT all men have sinned. You appear to imply that the words "for that" - separate man from original sin? However have you read the same verse in Greek? I assume what you seek to establish is that man "becomes" a sinner - BY sinning? My position is that - man sins BECAUSE he is a sinner, born and bred. It is his natural INHERITED genetic condition as a child of Adam. Adam in sinning changed the mortal from - image of God - to sinful image! Thus those who then are born children of Adam - ie every mortal - are in the image of their father Adam. Our natural depravity which is in us from the womb, is judged as sin and worthy of His wrath by God. Adam corrupted and depraved the nature of man *IN THE FALL* - the seed he then generated was like himself. Just as children have similar traits charateristics and likenesses of their parents today. 12/22/08 10:58 AM Par3    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments webwatch wrote: When naming the BIG difference, I hope you are not excusing lies by non-liars. I HAVE observed that lying is a sin that easily besets (Hebrews 12:1). Thank you for reminding me what this thread is about, but continuing off-topic for this post, and in answer to your question. . . No, of course, lying is inexcusable, but we do it all the time, don't we? When we fail to correct error, or mis-state, or exaggerate, or are not willing to offend when someone asks a question - - Are we really answering truthfully? I think it is nearly impossible to be absolutely truthful. The work of the Holy Spirit convicts the heart of the believer so that what he once could do so easily, he is no longer able to do so. Now, you can get back to your subject of the thread. 12/22/08 10:36 AM pew view    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments Mike wrote: Where does Lloyd-Jones think lust and desire originate, if not in the mind? Mike in relation to your question what do you think Paul meant here? Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring *AGAINST* THE LAW OF MY MIND, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. It seems that Paul detached the source of sin from the mind??? Also 25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." 12/22/08 7:59 AM webwatch    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments Par3 wrote: Yeah, BUT, there is a BIG difference in a liar and a person telling a lie... Sounds like MLJ is describing the unregenerate. Yes, Dr L-J is describing the unregenerate and this is a discussion related to Original Sin. Yes, a remnant of the natural man remains in the regenerate being. When naming the BIG difference, I hope you are not excusing lies by non-liars. I HAVE observed that lying is a sin that easily besets (Hebrews 12:1). Par3 wrote: So, the regenerate has a new heart and a new mind and a new spirit. The old has passed away. He is not who he was, and he is not who he will be... Amen!! However, even at a church gathering, I'm still mindful that thieves and liars may be present. I once lost my Bible that disappeared from my seat during a church meeting while I was distributing communion elements. In context, Dr. L-J was discussing Ephesians 5:18 "...be not drunk with wine...but be filled with the Spirit." He cited Jesus, Peter, Stephen, Barnabas, Paul, and the disciples in general among NT examples of those filled with the Spirit. Spiritual power is needed to overcome original, natural sin. 12/22/08 4:32 AM Par3    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments webwatch wrote: {MLJ quote} .every man is a liar, and ...every man is out for himself. Is this a pessimistic view? It is a realistic view...A man will lie to satisfy his own lusts and desires." Yeah, BUT, there is a BIG difference in a liar and a person telling a lie. No liar will enter heaven. God is Truth, and if one is of God, he will be like his Father and speak truth. Satan is the father of lies, and his children take after him - they lie - it is who they are. Sounds like MLJ is describing the unregenerate. King David was a man after God's own heart, yet, his sin of lying about his relationship with Bathsheba was a point in time - a defining moment recorded in history - but, David was not a liar. Of course, he suffered the lingering consequences for the rest of his life, but it was not who King David was. So, the regenerate has a new heart and a new mind and a new spirit. The old has passed away. He is not who he was, and he is not who he will be, but he is being sanctified and made holy, right here, right now. 12/21/08 10:20 PM webwatch    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments Mike wrote: Where does Lloyd-Jones think lust and desire originate, if not in the mind? I can't speak reliably for D.M.L-J but the Bible does speak of the flesh being contrary to the Spirit of God. Dr L-J did speak often of the Spirit. "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh". - Galatians 5:16 As you are likely to know, the Bible also speaks of the carnal mind. "...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be". - Romans 8:7 Dr L-J - "Why do you lock your door at night? Why do we have a Police Force? It is because you know perfectly well that in human nature there is that which is predatory, is selfish, is unjust and unrighteous, and that therefore we need to protect ourselves...every man is a liar, and ...every man is out for himself. Is this a pessimistic view? It is a realistic view...A man will lie to satisfy his own lusts and desires." 12/21/08 9:23 PM Mike  | New York    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments webwatch wrote: D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones - Man is a creature who is controlled chiefly by lusts and desires...Man, according to the Bible, is a creature of lust and desire, he is not governed by his mind or by his reason. Where does Lloyd-Jones think lust and desire originate, if not in the mind? 12/21/08 9:11 PM webwatch    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments Per the Apostle Paul, the Ephesian Church members had been "by nature children of wrath". D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones - Man is a creature who is controlled chiefly by lusts and desires...Man, according to the Bible, is a creature of lust and desire, he is not governed by his mind or by his reason. Before conversion, the Ephesians had been "dead in tresspasses and sins" wherein in times past they had "walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience". Their prior behavior was according to the "lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and by nature were all...the children of wrath." By nature, the Ephesians were originally sinful and originally harmonized with the spirit of the demonic angels and not with the Spirit of God. excerpted from D.M.L-J on the Power of the Spirit - Ephesians 5:18 By original nature, man is a selfish and a self-centered creature. We are all unjust, unrighteous, unthankful, unholy and not fully honest. 12/21/08 5:19 PM No Original Sin Passed On  | Israel    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments Castanet, WCF is a vehicle for perpetuating heterodoxy. I recommend disembarrassing yourself from the confession. Romans 5:12 elaborates itself. Sin passed upon all men FOR THAT all men have sinned. As for all of Romans 12, I have evidenced that imputaion is without justification. Albert Barnes comments, "When we say that thousands have been made infidels by the writings of Paine and Voltaire, we make no affirmation about the mode, but about the fact. In each of these, and in all other cases, we should deem it most inconclusive reasoning to attempt to determine the mode by the preposition by; and still more absurd if it were argued from the use of that preposition that the sins of the seducer were imputed to the young man; or the opinions of Paine and Voltaire imputed to infidels. "is not the slightest intimation that it was by imputation. The whole scope of the argument is, moreover, against this; for the object of the apostle is not to show that they were charged with the sin of another, but that they were in fact sinners themselves." Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." 12/21/08 4:55 PM Castanet    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments No Original Sin Passed On wrote: you have a long way to go to substantiate your averments. Your ideas of the flesh are wanting. No I don't. I can see that for many centuries the Christian Church has Taught and preached the Doctrine of Original Sin. I can see it expounded in many sermons by great and erudite teachers and ministers, for centuries. The Doctrine is Biblically correct and I believe the Holy Spirit confirms that. WCF. They (Adam/Eve) being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed,[a] and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[b] [a] Gen 1:27-28 and 2:16-17 and Acts 17:26 with Rom 5:12, 15-19 and 1 Cor 15:21-22; 1Cor 15:45, 49. [b] Gen 5:3; Job 14:4; 15:14; Psa 51:5. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 12/21/08 4:31 PM No Original Sin Passed On  | Israel    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments You assume too much. {Don't confuse with David's sin of Bathsheba} However, Psalm 51:5 teaches quite the opposite. Taken literally, David's mother committed the sin (with Nahash). While David's father was Jesse, his mother was considered masculated because of her former encounters with the king of the Ammonites. David was expressing his worthlessness. "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." [Jeremiah 31:29-30] Castanet, you have a long way to go to substantiate your averments. Your ideas of the flesh are wanting. http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin.. As for the time of the trespass acountability, Paul defines it as the time before the juvenile has a knowledge of God's moral law. As a personal testimony Paul avers that "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” (Romans 7:9) 'Not Sure', don't let these people muddle your mind with my so-called connection with Pelagius. I share no theological bond with the man. 12/21/08 3:42 PM Not sure  | But listening    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments DJC49 wrote: You'll then also have to take issue with the Westminster Confession of Faith (chap VI) ... AND The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) [section 6] ... . It's a heresy which arose out of the teachings of Pelagius and which was vehemently opposed by Augustine. The Council of Carthage declared Pelagius a heretic and his "no original sin" teaching as heresy. So, you are not espousing anything new here, *No Original Sin Passed On | Israel*. Take a seat along side Pelagius! Okay, I was temporarily off-course, but I'm back on the straight and narrow. WHEW. .hand swiping forehead. .Thanks. 12/21/08 3:36 PM Castanet    • Add new comment • Reply to comment • Report abuse • Groups | Comments No Original Sin Passed On wrote: One cannot inherit depravity. That's anserine. What? Has moral depravity become genetic? Homosexuals love to say yes. Sacred scriptures assures us otherwise. Yes you can. In fact you did. Moral depravity and homosexual practice rape murder etc etc are all the children of SIN. ONE term ONE title covers all mans evil estate. SIN is genetic. SIN'S' are the product of the flesh. We are all conceived in sin as God taught through David in Psalm 51. The proclivity to sin is built into your flesh, if you like your DNA. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

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