B. MC I was going to ask the same question. I know after reviewing my comment, I wasn't exactly clear. But I believe we both agree Christ's Kingdom is not of this world or present earth physically. And though I am not ready to go full Amil, I am leaning there. It is everlasting to everlasting and eternal.
Great Sermon! Pastor Sturm, do I understand that you no longer believe the sun moon and stars in rev 12 to be jacob leah and the 12 sons, but rather the stars cast down are 1/3 of the angels? Please forgive the run on sentence. Keep up the excellent work, you guys are refreshing.
Response to Rich L & Alfred Rich L, We are to believe that the whole Cannon of Scripture is not of private/human design, but God's.
Alfred, Christ's kindgom is one, and not linked to the earth: "My kingdom is not of this world" Jh 18:3
Prophecies about Christ's kingdom in the OT and NT are not 'time-contained' or curtailed to earth reigning. For instance, compare 2Sa 7:12-13, "when thy (David's) days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee â€¦ and I will establish his kingdom â€¦ and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever" with Lk 1:31-33: "Call his name JESUS ... and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob (His saints) for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Christ's kindgom in both passages has no specific time limit, but it is said to have no end. Being the book of Revelation a book of figures of speech and symbols, Rev 20 allegorises Christ's kingdom, with no intention to limit it, or snap it into parts. The 1000 years speak of a figurative time section of Christ's kingdom.
Nice Chat Are we to believe Paul knew what the Cannon of Scripture would be (i.e., that he had personal revelation of whole New Testament)? Maybe he knew what he wrote was Cannon, but neither this nor that is very clear et al. If Paul did know all that he might've quickly communicate a book like Revelation before his death and before John was commanded to write anything. Like prophets prior to Paul, they didnt have it all figured out. 1 Corinthians was an extra early writing compared to the sum of the NT. The Lord was still producing the Scriptures for decades! Why hold Paul up to an unprecedented standard? Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. While knowing he could die, he still taught that he could live until the return of Chirst. It definitely looks like the Thessalonians were to believe that.
Great Sermon! Great discussion, As a recovering pre-trib/dispensationalist, I too struggle with Rev 20. If you study the New Covenant/Testament only you don't see a literal 1000 year reign. I believe in Matthew Jesus says that His Kingdom is not of this world. 1 Cor 15:25 and its companion verse of Matt 22:44 and Psalm 110.1, Jesus is sitting on David's throne now at the right hand of the Father. Acts 15:16 and Amos 9:11-12. But if you read and study the Old Covenant/Testament, you see a future kingdom that seems earthly as in Isaiah and Zechariah and any other places. So, is everthing in the Old is fulfilled in New or in Christ Jesus? It seems so, ?
Reply to Jeff Brother Jeff,
Thanks for listening and thanks for the question. I cannot answer for the other three guys, but I can tell you that Paul is SO definitive in my opinion that if it doesn't pan out the way he says, he was mistaken. The thing I need to do is determine whether that endangers inerrancy. I know the right answer in this forum, but I refuse to believe the apostle was wrong or so guided by the Holy Spirit that He could be so definitive and yet proceed beyond that which was appropriate given his limited understanding of eschatology.
Great Sermon! Im sure you guys are familiar with Doug Wilson. He just sat down with Jeff Durbin and did an eschatology "conversation" explaining his views. He used ICor 15. I enjoyed it and believe it to be worthwhile. I found it on apologia radio.
Feed-back Friends, the apparent need to 'reconcile' matters derives from existent preconceived ideas brought into the discussion. No single eschatology position has 'all the answers' if dealing with fallible/limited creatures. Yet there should be positions, which will respond satisfactorily to sound hermeneutics.
It is a danger and a serious flaw to deal with the particular from the humanistic approach of trying to 'reconcile' what four authors (Paul, Peter, John and Jesus) say about the topic along their personal 'amount of understanding', instead of seeing the whole of Scripture as God's sufficient and infallible revelation. The doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible makes that no author was subject to his 'personal' intuition, understanding or revelation as it were. Useful and edifying series on the matter by Dr. Sinclair B. Ferguson: Apocalypse Now: The Reign of Christ (SA). Regards
Interesting opinions I do appreciate you guys living out your namesake and being true Berean's, and searching the scriptures and not being fixed on any system. I do remember struggling when an organization leader told me that if he ever changes his doctrinal position he would retire and leave the ministry/ and even the church he currently was at.
I had only 2 thoughts on this:
1) Has any effort been made to talk with some people who have more experience with pre-mill, maybe a pre-mill apologist from a seminary. The reason I ask this is when I have people converting to another faith, or even atheism how I wished they would of talked with someone and maybe get all the facts straight, instead of just dropping out at the very first sign of doubt. If I was in your position I would seek out the some prominent anti-amillenium folks who write books and radio such as:
Jimmy DeYoung "Prophesy Today" organization.
Dr. Michael Brown of "Ask Dr Brown"
And "Friends of Israel" Gospel Ministry.
My second thought is that there is more at stake in these doctrinal positions, I always believed that each one came with it's own presuppositions, which would lead to different interpretations of scriptures, such as prophesy of Daniel, and if the church existed in the O.T or only in N.T.
Great Sermon! I truly like that you are not afraid to discuss the hard stuff. It is helping me grow. My question is, "Was Paul looking to make a definitive statement of eschatology at this point?" It looks like his focus is more on salvific faith by understanding how important resurrection is, than making a declarative statement on end times. If his intent was to make such a statement, I would think he would have gone into more detail. Could it be that he did not go into great detail because that was not his focus? It is not an oversight or error, just not the main theme of his argument. i.e. You need to put gas in your car for it to run. I am not going to get into the details of a combustion engine, but you put gas in, turn the key and it runs. A lot of things happens between the key turning and it running, but the main thing is that it needs gas.
Just a thought I always cringe when I hear somebody say they wouldn't want to shoot one if the mass shooters. Usually it is some very Christian sounding reason like I want them to be able to hear the gospel. What about the victims? Most if not all of the victims are in hell with their killers. I never hear people talk about the victims chance to hear the gospel. I would rather kill the shooters and give the victims further opportunities to hear about God.