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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  12/18/2014
WEDNESDAY, JUL 23, 2014  |  247 comments  |  1 commentary
Patheos: Calvinism = Wahhabism?

.Analogies between the European Reformation and contemporary Islamism are much closer than many Protestants would like to admit.

Noyes compares Calvin closely to Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, the founder of the Wahhabi movement that so often features, unflatteringly, in our headlines. Al-Wahhab (1703-92) was also a near-exact contemporary of John Wesley (1703-91), a fact that cries out for a comparative dual biography!

Like Calvinism, Wahhabi Islam urged the destruction of everything that could be seen as a later accretion to the core of the religion, as well as all manifestations of paganism or idolatry. Since the 1920s, this version of the faith has been the official creed of Saudi Arabia, and variants of it are found among Islam’s violent and extreme movements. ...


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www.patheos.com

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Page 1 | Page 2 ·  Found: 247 user comment(s)
News Item7/28/14 3:05 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Quite a variety of interpretations and a probable. I prefer this one since it comes from the same book and timeline as Rom 13:11...
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Notice the future tense of "we shall be saved"
But that's just me expecting scripture to interpret scripture.
Well of course a saved person is saved from the future wrath, he could hardly be saved from something that isn't here yet.

But what I'm saying bro is that we are saved right here and now from the devil, we are saved from living in a dead state, we are made right with God immediately (justified), we are saved from living a sinful and destructive lifestyle, many of us are saved from death, we are saved from our enslavement to Satan. Paul was saved from killing yet more Christians, Christians were saved from being killed by Paul, we are delivered from the power of the world, the flesh and the devil.

Bro, there is far more to salvation than being given a ticket to heaven, and we are given a great deal immediately upon our justification. As I see it from the Bible....
Justified = Saved

I am saved, I'm being saved, I will be saved. And Paul was no different IHMO bro.

227

News Item7/28/14 3:02 PM
question  Find all comments by question
John for JESUS wrote:
I don't equate regeneration with salvation
Do you mean that you believe that some 'born again' sinners are NOT saved?

Is regeneration any part of salvation?

226

News Item7/28/14 2:54 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Lurker...
For the record, I don't equate regeneration with salvation. Salvation is being saved from the wrath of God and the judgement of God. The term regeneration is used once and in the verse speaks of the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit. I believe that means the Holy Spirit in dwells believers, placing them in Christ which makes them righteous before God and results in their eventual salvation which they now have in Christ.
225

News Item7/28/14 2:22 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Ah well, I'm not alone, brother.
Barnes has for Rom 13:11:
The word “salvation” has been here variously interpreted. Some suppose that by it the apostle refers to the personal reign of Christ on the earth. (Tholuck, and the Germans generally.) Others suppose it refers to deliverance from “persecutions.” Others, to increased “light” and knowledge of the gospel, so that they could more clearly discern their duty than when they became believers. (Rosenmuller.) It probably, however, has its usual meaning here, denoting that deliverance from sin and danger which awaits Christians in heaven; and is thus equivalent to the expression, “You are advancing nearer to heaven. You are hastening to the world of glory. Daily we are approaching the kingdom of light; and in prospect of that state, we ought to lay aside every sin, and live more and more in preparation for a world of light and glory.
Quite a variety of interpretations and a probable. I prefer this one since it comes from the same book and timeline as Rom 13:11...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Notice the future tense of "we shall be saved"

But that's just me expecting scripture to interpret scripture.

224

News Item7/28/14 1:09 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
And your surprise should tell you something about the meaning you've attached to the word "saved".
Ah well, I'm not alone, brother.

Barnes has for Rom 13:11:

The word “salvation” has been here variously interpreted. Some suppose that by it the apostle refers to the personal reign of Christ on the earth. (Tholuck, and the Germans generally.) Others suppose it refers to deliverance from “persecutions.” Others, to increased “light” and knowledge of the gospel, so that they could more clearly discern their duty than when they became believers. (Rosenmuller.) It probably, however, has its usual meaning here, denoting that deliverance from sin and danger which awaits Christians in heaven; and is thus equivalent to the expression, “You are advancing nearer to heaven. You are hastening to the world of glory. Daily we are approaching the kingdom of light; and in prospect of that state, we ought to lay aside every sin, and live more and more in preparation for a world of light and glory.”

223

News Item7/28/14 12:46 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
It's all a bit beyond me bro. But I would think that if Paul had died just after his baptism, he would have gone straight to heaven. But you say he was not saved yet?
p.s. I think it unwise to refer to regeneration as it is hardly mentioned in scripture, compared to the use it gets here, i.e. regenerate/unregenerate.
I say it because Paul wrote it... not only of himself but of all he was writing to. And your surprise should tell you something about the meaning you've attached to the word "saved".

These sticky little details all require a scriptural answer to be able to comprehend what was going on at that exact time and refusing to deal with them doesn't make them go away. Romans 13:11 is every bit as much the truth of God as any other verse and it is our responsibility to God to deal with it. If we fail to do that then what differentiates us from those who cherry pick and prooftext to shore up their pet doctrines while ignoring everything which proves them faulty? The bible is an organic whole, not a collection of disjointed parts, and no part of it can be left out and still represent the picture God originally portrayed.

Gotta go, John. God bless.

222

News Item7/28/14 12:22 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Sorry for any confusion, John. I'll try to explain.
....
....
When Paul penned this letter he was a believer, had been regenerated according to God's promise in Deut 30:6, received the Holy Spirit at the hand on Ananias but he was not yet saved.
It's all a bit beyond me bro. But I would think that if Paul had died just after his baptism, he would have gone straight to heaven. But you say he was not saved yet?

p.s. I think it unwise to refer to regeneration as it is hardly mentioned in scripture, compared to the use it gets here, i.e. regenerate/unregenerate.

221

News Item7/28/14 12:08 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Faith in Christ Jesus crucified and we ARE saved. It is a present possession.
I don't know where Lurker is going with this.
Sorry for any confusion, John. I'll try to explain.

J4J was attempting to prove that his faith was his own by equating regeneration with salvation. I said there was no biblical warrant to do so, that they are completely separate terms with separate meanings and Michael popped in and launched a verse to prove I was wrong. To defend my assertion I quoted the following:

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

When Paul penned this letter he was a believer, had been regenerated according to God's promise in Deut 30:6, received the Holy Spirit at the hand on Ananias but he was not yet saved. Further, I gave the reason why Paul was not yet saved, when he actually was saved, what he was saved from and the reason why. I went on to say that salvation was immediate once the day of salvation aka the accepted time had commenced. See 2 Cor 6:2 cf. Isaiah 49:8.

I could write a book about all the prophecies which came to pass beginning with Paul's calling on Damascus Road. I'm amazed they go unnoticed by so many.

220

News Item7/28/14 11:28 AM
NRC  Find all comments by NRC
Did you notice folks how J4? twists and cast doubt on the Word of God?
Remind you of someone else??
J4? is a troubler who needs to be shunned like the plague
219

News Item7/28/14 11:27 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Ladybug...
I didn't mean to address you in that post, but I am glad you are willing to talk about it.
I wasn't trying to nullify regeneration by quoting 1 Tim 1:16. Paul's pattern of believing on Jesus for eternal life is our pattern. For eternal life, we must first believe.

Ephesians 1:13 NKJV

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

How did they believe? Certainly not because the Spirit was in them, making them. He doesn't seal any before faith. How did they hear? Through the preaching of the gospel which was sent by God.
I am not plucking verses out of context. Paul himself said the Corinthians were not accepting the things of God, although they were believers.
What would be the point of God giving faith to the natural person anyway? According to you, they wouldn't be able to use it anyways! If I give a baby a car to drive and they don't know how to use it and can't operate it, what would be the point? If I'm the one driving them around in it, they can't be credited with driving it themselves.

218

News Item7/28/14 10:47 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
penny wrote:
John UK, well, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Like I said about the mechanics of the eye, it is a great mystery to me, and so I don't know that I would win points in anyone's court. But in the end our salvation is of the Lord, and so I have no claim rights on my salvation. God opened my eyes, helpless to see as I was. I do believe man has a will too and does terrible evil as you and Unprofitable Servant have been discussing. Is it alright that there be some mystery and awe to salvation? I'm off for now, so good day.
Penny, I believe there is a great deal of mystery and awe about the salvation of any sinner. It is a most wonderful thing, and not to be lightly spoken of. Some talk as if it were no more than like joining a golf club.

Yes, there is a holy atmosphere whenever one is convicted of their sins by the Almighty God (Spirit). It is none other than a visitation from GOD. Why does he come? He comes to save, to deliver from sin and death and hell. He applies the awesome redemptive blood of the Lamb to our lost estate, washing us clean and giving us Christ's righteousness, gifting us eternal life through his Son.

It is an amazing work of God to turn us around, that we might serve HIM.

217

News Item7/28/14 10:43 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Pennned...
Sorry, a few post ago I addressed ladybug when I ment it for you.

As far as Ephesians 2:8:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Do you really believe the translation is that wrong and should actually read this way?

For by grace you have faith through being saved, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

It seems to me that in the real God breathed verse, being saved is the topic. His grace is why we have been saved and through faith is the means by which we receive His salvation. Anybody who has been saved, it is a gift of God given to us because of His grace and through our faith.

216

News Item7/28/14 10:39 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Michael, I jusy noticed the sermon above..."You shall have no other gods". Will give it a listen later. I'm glad.you identify yourself because I have a feeling there are other pastors who comment on the forum but remain anonymous (which is their perogative, of course).
215

News Item7/28/14 10:35 AM
ladybug  Find all comments by ladybug
J4J,
As for 1 Timothy 1:16, that verse in no way nullifies regeneration. What was Paul addressing? He was speaking of his conversion- this is his 'testimony'. You have to read the verses prior to and immediately following to get the context. He tells us he was the chief of sinners, but he obtained mercy. Go back to Acts and the road to Damascus to see how God converted Paul. Paul believed immediately AFTER the Lord brought him to Himself and regenerated him.
'They heard, believed, and were sealed' - how were they able to hear? Who opened those deaf ears? Can you believe apart from being born again? What did Jesus tell Nicodemus, who was a religious leader and believed? Why did Christ tell him you have to be born again? Why does God say we are dead in sin until quickened, or made alive, by Him?

I've asked before, but you never answered. What makes your faith genuine?
One final question, God says we are unable to receive spiritual truths in our natural state, yet you keep plucking verses out of context and force them to say something they do not and God does not say - that we can believe in our natural state. You refuse to believe the truth because it exposes your faulty theology. How is one 'in Christ'? By being born from above and gifted with faith!

214

News Item7/28/14 10:24 AM
NRC  Find all comments by NRC
'"Repent Ye, and Belive the Gospel."
-------------------------
"But he that believeth not shall be damned".
Pretty clear to me!
213

News Item7/28/14 10:14 AM
penny  Find all comments by penny
John UK, well, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Like I said about the mechanics of the eye, it is a great mystery to me, and so I don't know that I would win points in anyone's court. But in the end our salvation is of the Lord, and so I have no claim rights on my salvation. God opened my eyes, helpless to see as I was. I do believe man has a will too and does terrible evil as you and Unprofitable Servant have been discussing. Is it alright that there be some mystery and awe to salvation? I'm off for now, so good day.
212

News Item7/28/14 10:14 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
II Timothy 2:1 NKJV

You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

The unmerited favor of God isn't even shown until one is in Christ!

Romans 8:9 NKJV

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

If one is not in Christ, then they are not His. They are not His elect or heirs. There aren't any people walking around regenerated by God apart from being in Christ and there aren't any people in Christ apart from first believing! As I pointed out in my last post, Ephesians 1:13 says it is after believing that we are sealed in Him.

II Corinthians 5:17 NKJV

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

It is not until being in Christ that one is a new creature or regenerated.

211

News Item7/28/14 10:04 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
pennned wrote:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8
faith is also a gift of God, not of "yourselves".
Yes, it's interesting Penny that all Christians believe in "salvation by grace". Some believe that saving grace is given only to sinners chosen by God and that this grace is irresistible, resulting in the salvation of all for whom it is intended. Others believe in prevenient grace, whereby the Spirit of God enables all men to receive Christ, to choose Christ and thus be saved, but there is no guarantee that they will, in fact most don't.
210

News Item7/28/14 9:55 AM
pennned  Find all comments by pennned
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

faith is also a gift of God, not of "yourselves".

209

News Item7/28/14 9:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Yes bro, John Gill had much knowledge but was extremist par excellent.

1 Peter 1:18-25 KJV
(18) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
(19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
(20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(21) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
(22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
(24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
(25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Preach the word = see people born again

208
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