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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  12/17/2014
FRIDAY, MAY 10, 2013  |  84 comments
When Christians become a 'hated minority'
When Peter Sprigg speaks publicly about his opposition to homosexuality, something odd often happens.

During his speeches, people raise their hands to challenge his assertions that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but no Christians speak out to defend him.

“But after it is over, they will come over to talk to me and whisper in my ear, ‘I agree with everything you said,’" says Sprigg, a spokesman for The Family Research Council, a powerful, conservative Christian lobbying group.

We’ve heard of the “down-low” gay person who keeps his or her sexual identity secret for fear of public scorn. But Sprigg and other evangelicals say changing attitudes toward homosexuality have created a new victim: closeted Christians who believe the Bible condemns homosexuality but will not say so publicly for fear of being labeled a hateful bigot. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
religion.blogs.cnn.com

Attitude Toward Homosexuality?
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Page 1 | Page 2 ·  Found: 84 user comment(s)
News Item5/14/13 6:49 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
San Jose John wrote:
I had always assumed that the 100, 60, and 30-fold had to do with CONVERTS won over during this new believer's lifetime, but have since been informed that the "fruit" spoken of here is the so-called fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.) which can and often does (and probably should) result in the expansion of God's kingdom.
Thanks John for an answer, even if you seem a bit bemused by it. Could it be you had it right in the first place? After all, if you plant a potato in the ground, you end up with about ten potatoes - that is the fruit.

I'm still working on it BTW.

Sorry about the delay. My laptop suddenly required a password to log on into Windows, and although I had a "hint", I could not find it. I tried everything. Panic. Could not access anything. I could enter "Setup", but there was nothing there.

So this morning I went to the public library and searched for an answer on one of their machines. A glimmer of hope, in the form of an F8 key, which could be used to enter a "safe mode" of XP Home, from where I could reset the password as "Administator". This done, I am now back online. Phew!

64

News Item5/14/13 12:22 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Unprofitable Sevant wrote:
I will state for clarification, that God is in the heaven and He reigns over all His creation. (Daniel 4).
I wanted to take a moment to reply to this statement. I presume you wrote this in response to my quote of Isaiah 52:7 "Thy God reigneth!"

I don't disagree with your reply in general but the sovereignty of God over His creation is not part of the context of the prophecy. The words were written specifically to Zion, the espoused of Christ (2 Cor 11:2) at the time the kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to a nation which would bring forth the fruits thereof.... when Paul was sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles.

Unprofitable Sevant wrote:
I don't believe in a God who is at the mercy of human will to be able to accomplish His purposes on the earth. You will not find the phrase make Jesus Lord of your life, because He is Lord, you have a choice to acknowledge that but your acknowledgement or lack thereof does not change His position.
Amen!
63

News Item5/13/13 11:13 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Unprofitable Sevant wrote:
My main point is that nothing that surrounds the 1000 year reign in Revelation 20 is by anybody here thought to be allegorical, so why do we say it is?
Literal or allegorical 1,000 years is a side issue. The real issue is whether the reign of Christ has begun or if it is future. And so far, all I've seen are subective judgment calls for a future literal fulfillment. Not good enough.

One last comment on the marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19:7-9) since it immediately precedes the reign of Christ and therefore relevant. Hosea 2:14ff records an eternal marriage: "And I will betroth thee unto me for ever..." Interestingly, Paul quotes Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 (see Rom 9:25-26) and Peter quotes Hosea 1:9-10 (see 1 Peter 2:10) both indicating the prophecies quoted had been fulfilled. Sort of hard to put the marriage off into the future since it is sandwiched between fulfilled prophecies, imo. It might be worth your time to have a look see.

That said, I have long enjoyed your comments and your kind and gentle spirit and have no desire to get crossways with you, or any one for that matter, because of a disagreement over something that won't affect one's eternal fate. It will all get straightened out in God's time.

Blessings, brother.

62

News Item5/13/13 7:05 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
CDA wrote:
My post started with the words, "God does not permit man or devil to know the day or the hour of Christ’s Second Coming TO JUDGE all creation...
thank you, my apologies I missed that, I don't find that anywhere in the passages that no man knows the hour of Christ's second coming that it is TO JUDGE all creation at that time, it does not say that, it is your reading that into the context. Do you have anywhere else in Scriptures that Zaccheus climbed up a tree to see the Lord other than Luke 19? Do you have any other place in Scripture that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night other than John 3? No, there is no other passage that speaks of 1000 year separation but I only need to see it once. Also, Revelation 20 speaks about the people that on the earth (verses 8&9). Revelation 20 is the only passage the speaks of the dead being judged out of the things that were written in the books at the great white throne judgment,and saying that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire; do I have to say that it cannot be literal and must be allegorical because it is found nowhere else in the Holy Writ?

Thanks jpw, you have a great day too young lady.

61

News Item5/13/13 6:19 PM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Jpw, again as pointed out earlier we are not looking at you believe only one way or the other. You yourself believe in a literal heaven, a literal hell, a literal judgment seat, a literal resurrection as they appear in Scripture ,that does not make you a loony-bin. The Bible has both allegorical and literal passages. The Bible has both allegorical and literal prophecies.
you all have a great day.
60

News Item5/13/13 6:11 PM
CDA  Find all comments by CDA
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Thanks for the helpful response. Yet if the 1000 years begins AFTER the return of Christ then it is not a violation of no man knowing the date or hour of His appearing. But yours and Luker's answer were very helpful for me. It has been a long time since I have taken up the studies of these things, it helps to be reminded of the reasoning behind the thinking.
My post started with the words, "God does not permit man or devil to know the day or the hour of Christ’s Second Coming TO JUDGE all creation.

According to your theory this does not happen at his second coming. Can you point to any NT passage (other than Rev 20) which indicates that his second coming and the judgement are divorced by a 1000 year period?

Re: The 1000 year reign -what makes you think this is on earth?. Presumably the wording that this is the first resurrection? If so, again my question is where else in the NT do you read of multiple resurrections?

59

News Item5/13/13 6:03 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
CDA wrote:
God does not permit man or devil to know the day or the hour of Christ’s Second Coming to judge all creation...
Thanks for the helpful response. Yet if the 1000 years begins AFTER the return of Christ then it is not a violation of no man knowing the date or hour of His appearing. But yours and Luker's answer were very helpful for me. It has been a long time since I have taken up the studies of these things, it helps to be reminded of the reasoning behind the thinking.
58

News Item5/13/13 4:49 PM
CDA  Find all comments by CDA
God does not permit man or devil to know the day or the hour of Christ’s Second Coming to judge all creation. If therefore the Thousand Years (Millennium) denote a literal thousand years it would be possible for those who take the post-millenarian position (adopted by most of the Puritans and their successors) to name the date of the final event, the end of the world, by the simple process of reckoning from the commencement of that Golden Age. Likewise, seeing that their Golden Age has certainly not yet begun, they would be in the disturbing position of being able to assure all the sinful world that there is no fear yet of judgment - the Thousand Years has not even started!

But if the Thousand Years is not intended to denote such an exact period of time, but (as we believe) the entire Gospel Reign of Emmanuel from His resurrection from the dead to His sudden appearance to judge all creation - an appearance which is described by Paul as ‘in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet’ (1 Cor. 15:52) - then we must accept that the Thousand Years is not a literal measurement of time, but an uncertain period of great duration, known only to God in whose sight a thousand years is as one day, and one day as a thousand years (see 2 Peter 3:8).

57

News Item5/13/13 4:38 PM
Unprofitable Sevant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Sevant
Lurker wrote:
Not really, bro...
Really if I was attacking literalism, I would probably leave Nicodemus out of the equation and attack the woman at the well, or the crowd in John 6 or those who misunderstood about destroying the temple. Thanks for your gracious response Luker. I guess I was looking also at the things like, born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) born of Virgin (Isaiah 7:14) out of Egypt have I called my son (Hosea 11:1), the triumphal entry (Zechariah 9:9) the pierced hands (Psalm 22:16), etc. Thanks will look into the passage in Isaiah 24. I will state for clarification, that God is in the heaven and He reigns over all His creation. (Daniel 4) I don't believe in a God who is at the mercy of human will to be able to accomplish His purposes on the earth. You will not find the phrase make Jesus Lord of your life, because He is Lord, you have a choice to acknowledge that but your acknowledgement or lack thereof does not change His position. I see the millennial reign as a reign HERE physically on the earth instead in His position at the right hand of the Father He currently occupies. My main point is that nothing that surrounds the 1000 year reign in Revelation 20 is by anybody here thought to be allegorical, so why do we say it is?
56

News Item5/13/13 3:42 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
We do agree that the gospel writers applied OT prophecies literally?
Not really, bro. Or perhaps I should say: That misses the purpose of prophetic citations.

Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The purpose of the prophetic citations is establish a timeline of fulfillment of the source prophecy. With that knowledge it is possible to bring the relevant context of the source prophecy forward to its timeline of fulfillment and gain a better understanding of the events of the time.

Regarding the mill reign; there is one very clear cross reference at Isaiah 24:21-23. Look it up for it states the duration of Chris't reign as "many days".

But beyond that there are many reasons to believe Christ's reign began when Paul was sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles but they will never be seen if the Revelation is interpreted in isolation.

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

The bible has much light to shed on the Revelation. It's up to you to discover it.

Blessings.

55

News Item5/13/13 1:44 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Ok, for my hodge-podge answer. Well, Observer, you my brother are the one who mentioned OT prophecies interpretations that your were going to blow out the water and we were discussing the millennium. We do agree that the gospel writers applied OT prophecies literally? I did already note Isaiah 35 and 9. I agree with your interpretation of the Amos passage, that does not mean that the 1000 year reign of Christ is not literal.

Thanks Frank for your support.

Jpw, again as pointed out earlier we are not looking at you believe only one way or the other. You yourself believe in a literal heaven, a literal hell, a literal judgment seat, a literal resurrection as they appear in Scripture ,that does not make you a loony-bin. The Bible has both allegorical and literal passages. The Bible has both allegorical and literal prophecies.

San Jose John, I believe the fruit would be growth in the graces of the Lord, whether it be the fruit of the Spirit, prayer, meditation, Bible reading, a meek and quiet spirit, words that minister grace to the hearers, mortification of the flesh, pursuit of holiness, etc. The point being if there is no growth that last then the seed did not take and the person is unconverted. That growth would vary from person to person.

54

News Item5/13/13 1:08 PM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
Observer, you are not alone on this...

Nicodemus did only understand a literal meaning of born again because his eyes were not yet opened.

They were expecting a political leader, to keep their land and rule.... and here this miracle maker, healer, and great teacher was humble (and to add to insult later) was crucified.

it is the humble of heart that see God (see Sermon on the Mount)

Indeed, this discussion, this tension between Nicodemus and Christ is the same discussion, the same tension that we are finding now within religious circles.

being born in the Spirit, maybe some would see that as allegorical?

We are using diminitive terms to describe the things that are spiritual, which in God's eyes are actual.

That is why I challenge the word "literal". I've never known a literalist who was literal. It is impossible to be an absolute literalist and not sound like a loony-bin.... shall we say "here is the body" and say that we are eating the body of Christ?

I'm challenging the term as a system, because it does not actually exist.

Now I know no one here who are "allegoricists" and I see no one here that wants more than to find a true and respectful understanding of the Word of God.

53

News Item5/13/13 12:42 PM
San Jose John | San Jose, CA  Find all comments by San Jose John
John UK wrote:
...Now what is this "fruit" that the seed bears? And what is this "hundredfold, sixty, and thirty"?
I am taking it that the seed is the word of God, and that the good ground is a prepared heart of a sinner, willing and able to receive the seed, and to understand and believe it.
I had always assumed that the 100, 60, and 30-fold had to do with CONVERTS won over during this new believer's lifetime, but have since been informed that the "fruit" spoken of here is the so-called fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.) which can and often does (and probably should) result in th expansion of God's kingdom.

Perhaps someone else on here can give you an even better answer than this.

Lisa wrote:
John- ask them what sodom and Gomorrah was all about !
Thanks, Lisa.

Most common "deflection" of both Genesis 19 and Judges 19 I've heard is that "lack of hospitality" and not homosexuality was the sin that was punished. I know it's a lame defense on their part but it allows me to explain Sodom's progress through the Bible being initially worldly (root sin) and eventually degenerating to homosexuality (flower sin) just prior to their judgment (harvest). Not unlike our own present culture and others throu

52

News Item5/13/13 12:30 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Actually, if my memory serves me correctly (not a good place to have to go) well over 90% (believe was above 99%) of the time we see the term thousand in the Scripture, it literally means 1,000. There are times it is used allegorically also. So, we have to go to context. There is nothing in the context of Revelation 20 to suggest that the 1,000 years is not 1,000 years as all the verses that surround it, even the amillenialist take literally. I am not really sure why it is critical that there is no such thing as a millennial reign of Christ before the destruction of the earth as described in II Peter 3? Why would the Lord have to rule the earth "To order it and establish it with judgment and justice" (Isaiah 9:7) if all the inhabitants are in a state of sinless perfection in heaven and there is nothing that defiles? Will respond to Observer in later post
I agree completely with you! To say otherwise is simply to deconstruct what scripture is saying. It is like finding a verse where a day doesn't mean a literal 24 hour day and then deconstructing the creation account to prove an old earth theory. I wonder why the Holy Spirit used it in repetition?

This post was only to let you know, you're not alone.

51

News Item5/13/13 12:01 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
It seems like we had an intensive discussion on this awhile back. Actually, if my memory serves me correctly (not a good place to have to go) well over 90% (believe was above 99%) of the time we see the term thousand in the Scripture, it literally means 1,000. There are times it is used allegorically also. So, we have to go to context. There is nothing in the context of Revelation 20 to suggest that the 1,000 years is not 1,000 years as all the verses that surround it, even the amillenialist take literally. I am not really sure why it is critical that there is no such thing as a millennial reign of Christ before the destruction of the earth as described in II Peter 3? Why would the Lord have to rule the earth "To order it and establish it with judgment and justice" (Isaiah 9:7) if all the inhabitants are in a state of sinless perfection in heaven and there is nothing that defiles? Will respond to Observer in later post
50

News Item5/13/13 11:52 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
..You are saying that because there are prophecies that are interpreted allegorically then the rule should apply to other OT prophecies regarding the millennium.
What OT prophecies concerning the millenium? Does the OT mention 1000 years?

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
....I would point out that none of the gospel writers, particularly Matthew, had any problem saying that OT prophecies were literally fulfilled. Even the Lord Jesus took that route in Luke 4:21.
The prophecy of Joel was fulfilled, even though you cannot discern how all the elements were present on the day of Pentecost. I will explain another time.

The Amos prophecy was fulfilled. Again you cannot discern how all the elements of that prophecy was fulfilled, but they were, which is why James was able to quote it.

The problem is not fulfillment, it is that wish to see a crudely literal fulfillment. Hence my questions about the Amos quote in Acts 15.

Bro Lurker

I know a great deal of this is familiar to you, so please do join in. It would be good to have your wisdom on these points too. O/W it may seem to some that I am a sole voice and it may reinforce Chris's error that amills are a minority!

49

News Item5/13/13 11:00 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Christopher000 wrote:
I am beginning to comprehend just how anyone could allegorize the millenial reign. I'm not saying that I'm putting anything together yet, but I am beginning to see how it could be allegorized as opposed to being nothing other than literal.
I guess my biggest obstacle is that it seems to me that one has to work real hard to comprehend it as being anything other than a literal event.
I don't get any of that yet, but after following the thread and reading verses that you all have posted up as examples and arguments, I can kind of see how it could be allegorized but I have to work hard to accept and comprehend it as such.
One thing I appreciate about you, Chris, is you have an open mind... a rare commodity on a forum. The hardest thing to open is a closed mind.

I agree with Observer, definately not about being smarter than anyone else but about a sincere desire, wrought by God (I believe), to understand Him, His ways and His will for my life.

I have heard it said a couple times that because the phrase "thousand years" is written six times it demands a literal interpretation. That's subjective reasoning. Surely there's got to be a better way.

Observer's doing a great job so I'm going to step to the sideline, watch and learn.

48

News Item5/13/13 10:51 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Observer wrote:
US
It's all very well ...
Ahh, the big issue is where we are going not just the specific prophecy. You are saying that because there are prophecies that are interpreted allegorically then the rule should apply to other OT prophecies regarding the millennium. I would point out that none of the gospel writers, particularly Matthew, had any problem saying that OT prophecies were literally fulfilled. Even the Lord Jesus took that route in Luke 4:21. So using the same approach I could say we should take OT prophecies literally. Again, we both agree correct hermeneutics should be applied. I will heartily agree some millennialist do a huge stretch. (still have not figured out why some say they would do animal sacrifices during the millennium) and I realize that anything I would say as to why it is not happening now--say Isaiah 35-- (seeing amillinialist say the kingdom is current) you would say because it is an allegory. I do want to discuss the parable of the sower but will be limited by characters. I don't believe it is saying that only a percentage of the hearers will be saved. (if you went that route I would say 25% others would say higher) I believe it teaches that all saved will have fruit that demonstrates that, varying amounts.
47

News Item5/13/13 9:28 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Christopher000 wrote:
...I can kind of see how it could be allegorized...
If the 1000 years is to be taken literally, it is the solitary instance in a unique book abounding in mystic characters and symbolic numbers.

Does anyone interpret its numerous 7s literally, or the 666 or 144,000 or the 42 months, or 3 and half years?

Just as 7 is a symbol of perfection, so the thousand years is a symbol of a long indefinite period of time - indefinite in the number of years but very definite as to the exact period covered.

The genre of prophecy/apocalyptic writing has its own language. This we must understand and apply aright if we are to understand it correctly.

In my post of 5/12/13 6.45AM - The quote from Amos- do you see the death and resurrection of Christ and the in gathering of the remnant of the Jews and the Gentiles? If not you're not reading it correctly!

46

News Item5/13/13 9:01 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks Observer. I am beginning to comprehend just how anyone could allegorize the millenial reign. I'm not saying that I'm putting anything together yet, but I am beginning to see how it could be allegorized as opposed to being nothing other than literal.
I guess my biggest obstacle is that it seems to me that one has to work real hard to comprehend it as being anything other than a literal event.
I don't get any of that yet, but after following the thread and reading verses that you all have posted up as examples and arguments, I can kind of see how it could be allegorized but I have to work hard to accept and comprehend it as such.
45
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