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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/24/2014
Choice News THURSDAY, MAR 21, 2013  |  79 comments  |  2 commentaries
Matthew Vines Launches 'Reformation Project' to Make Churches Gay-Affirming

Matthew Vines, a Harvard-educated gay Christian who sparked a great deal of controversy in the church community last year with his in-depth analysis on why the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, has launched a new leadership training conference aimed at teaching Christians how to lead LGBT-friendly churches and communities.

In a video announcing the project, Vines says The Reformation Project will "train, connect and empower gay Christians and their allies to reform church teaching on homosexuality from the ground up."

Vines gained a wide recognition and stirred controversy last year with his hour-long YouTube video, which has gained over half a million views, where he presented a detailed argument on why he believes the Bible does not condemn gay people. ...


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Page 1 | Page 2 ·  Found: 79 user comment(s)
News Item3/22/13 4:14 PM
John mackay | Scotland  Contact via emailFind all comments by John mackay
Hi watchman I was most interested to read your account.I agree with your comments entirely.can I discuss further by email?
59

News Item3/22/13 4:08 PM
Bryan | Pa  Find all comments by Bryan
The Bible makes it clear that homsexuality is a sin in the OT and the NT. it is a sexual sin like fornication and adultery. The bible says towards the end times to watch our doctrine closely and that people will hear what their itching ears want to hear. Matthew Vines is speaking falsehood. The word od God will not be mocked. Love the sinner and hate the sin.
58

News Item3/22/13 1:39 PM
kris | tx  Find all comments by kris
God bless you and thank you for acting as a saint and spreading true words of the gospel. Christ didnt die in vain with you. Amen
57

News Item3/22/13 1:23 PM
Watchman  Find all comments by Watchman
JY, that's the difference between a so called convert who converted because he was emotionally manipulated, and a Holy Spirit convert whose heart has been changed so that there is genuine faith in the Lord Jesus.

We should be extremely wary of preachers who preach only to work up peoples emotions. We should rather value the preacher who preaches so that the truth will pierce the heart and under the blessing of the Holy Spirit will lead to lasting results, bringing genuine glory to God.

How is it JY that you appear to have no personal testimony or Christian experience? You have little or no sensitivity to sin, even stating lightly on this forum that you would violate your own conscience to achieve your objective of marriage in the RCC because you know you can ask the Lord to forgive. Such presumption is wicked indeed.

Does none of this worry you?

56

News Item3/22/13 11:16 AM
Watchman  Find all comments by Watchman
I would also add to US that the NT times were days of persecution and as such, many would have had to think very seriously before professing Christ, because it may have led to them having to lay down their lives for the Lord.

We tend to find even now that in countries where persecution is rife, we don't get so much dead wood in the churches!

So a good dose of persecution is tremendous for the purity of the churches.

55

News Item3/22/13 9:00 AM
Watchman  Find all comments by Watchman
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
..you will be hard pressed to find an example in the New Testament where people were not baptized into church membership immediately after their profession of faith..
The New Testament times were rather special with the Spirit working in extraordinary ways and all sorts of gifts possessed by people, including a gift called the gift of discernment etc.

So I would be careful with admitting those who newly profess the faith into membership. (I believe that the NT teaches a regenerate church membership).

I accept that no church can be infallible in discerning the marks of a genuine convert, and so the occasional one or two may slip the net. After all the counterfeit can look very like the real thing.

I do agree with your assertion that churches today do not exercise discipline. In days gone by they would have argued that a church that fails to exercise discipline is NO church at all!

Blessings!
_____________________________

Christopher, Amen to your last

54

News Item3/22/13 8:46 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Watchman wrote:
... If we take great care in looking for the marks of a true convert before accepting people into church membership
I do agree with most of your post, but you will be hard pressed to find an example in the New Testament where people were not baptized into church membership immediately after their profession of faith, we even have an example where a person's profession was false in Acts 8. That is what church discipline is for, which lacks today in many congregations as people stay on church rolls long after they stopped coming to church.
53

News Item3/22/13 8:27 AM
Watchman  Find all comments by Watchman
John Yurich USA wrote:
The Altar Call is based upon Romans 10:9. So the Altar Call is not unscriptural.
What utter rubbish!

Where in Romans 10.9 does it say that if you respond to an altar call you are saved?

It is a matter of the heart!

So how does this play out in an altar call? Well, let me explain. Generally speaking one goes to a revival meeting with a charged atmosphere. A so called evangelist who is generally quite eloquent will rouse the emotions and by the end people's emotions will be supercharged. This is the moment they make the altar call and so many people come forward. How many of these people are responding to the truth and how many because their emotions are charged?

Read the stats from any Billy Graham crusade and you will see the trend. The overwhelming majority made an emotional response and simply disappeared from church circles within a very short time!!

Whatever impact the crusade had died away very quickly so that these so called converts lost their faith.

Talk to them now, and they'll tell you that they tried Christianity and it did not work for them!!

How do you even start to convince them that what they experienced was not even genuine Christianity?

JY, are you a product of such meetings?

52

News Item3/22/13 7:34 AM
John Yurich USA | USA  Find all comments by John Yurich USA
Watchman wrote:
In churches where these things are little known, or considered, an unconverted person, who maybe a gifted speaker, may even make it to the the eldership or even to the Pastorate. Some of them may even lead mega-churches and receive some fame. Watch the havoc, the consternation and fall out when these men abandon the faith. How is the faith blasphemed when they bring such disrepute upon it?
The majority of these problems would vanish if we get rid of "easy believism", "altar-calls" etc and have true notions of what conversion is.
The Altar Call is based upon Romans 10:9. So the Altar Call is not unscriptural.
51

News Item3/22/13 7:17 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
"...it may nevertheless come as a shock to those believers who were taken in by them."

Interesting posts, watchman. There are so many in highly esteemed Christian positions of leadership, Christian authors, and people within the church that by all accounts, anyone would swear they are men/women after God's own heart. The unregenerate can't keep
up the act for too long before their true selves begin to leach out. Whether that be evidenced by sin, heretical doctrines, or whatever, true born again Christians will know things are not right, even though the indications may be ever so subtle. The problem I see with these people is that they genuinely believe that they are saved, even though their daily, secret lives, tell a different story, or they actively promote extra-biblical heresies that the Bible is either silent on or speaks directly against. The latter are those who shepard those with the "itching ears."
Also, as far as alter calls; I just began thinking about these just yesterday and I am starting to think that they are, for the most part, meaningless. I think people need to be instructed, reminded, and warned as often as possible, but I just don't feel anymore (I don't think) that people have any reason to celebrate over any and all who say the magic prayer en mas

50

News Item3/22/13 7:06 AM
no is an option  Find all comments by no is an option
Until our 55 year old pastors (like Schaap) stop counseling / texting their 16 year old members, Reformed homosexuals (like Vines) will continue to claim the higher moral ground. As Watchman alluded to but didn't come right out and state, it's time to call our pastors to a higher standard: No more handheld porn and sexting. A celibate homosexual is preferable to a ravenous pre-retirement heterosexual pastor.
49

News Item3/22/13 6:12 AM
Watchman  Find all comments by Watchman
In churches where these things are little known, or considered, an unconverted person, who maybe a gifted speaker, may even make it to the the eldership or even to the Pastorate. Some of them may even lead mega-churches and receive some fame. Watch the havoc, the consternation and fall out when these men abandon the faith. How is the faith blasphemed when they bring such disrepute upon it?

The majority of these problems would vanish if we get rid of "easy believism", "altar-calls" etc and have true notions of what conversion is. If we take great care in looking for the marks of a true convert before accepting people into church membership. And certainly we should never, even when days are dark, be in a hurry to appoint anyone as an office bearer. Candidates for office should be under scrutiny for a long time and their metal tested to make sure that they are fit and proper persons - men full of the Holy Ghost and able to care for and feed the flock of God which he purchased with his own blood. Recent converts should not even be considered for office no matter how gifted, nor should men who have had moral problems of a sexual nature pre or post conversion.

Read the older works on what was called "casuistry" and you will see what great care they exercised in these matters.

48

News Item3/21/13 6:57 PM
Watchman  Find all comments by Watchman
contd..

These temporary believers though not converted may continue in the faith for some time (some even years). The tenor of their spiritual life will be kept hidden. They will never speak of struggles with sin, anwers to prayer, delight in reading the bible etc. They have no Christian testimony or experience to speak of!

Perversely, even though Christian experience is foreign to such, they may learn the language of Zion and after some time because they speak like Christians may even be accepted as Christians by the undiscerning. Churches with such people will experience all sorts of problems with them, but misguidedly will not confront them.

When these dogs go back to their vomit to betray that they were never changed, it may nevertheless come as a shock to those believers who were taken in by them.

When these abandon the faith, their fall will be permanent. They will die without recovery and will die in their sins.

In the case of Mr Vines, he is clearly deluded as to his standing before God and is going about doing the devils bidding.

____________________________________

US

My concern is to show the difference between the genuine convert and the 'reformed dog' who professes conversion.

In terms of what you say - I agree wholeheartedly.

47

News Item3/21/13 6:39 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Rufus wrote:
We go up briefly to be judged but heaven comes down.
Revelation 5:10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Maybe we are just talking about different time frames. Obviously Stephen is in heaven and not here on earth, as are also other saints who have passed into glory. There is no reason not to believe that the judgment seat of Christ is a personal judgment that takes place as soon as we pass through those pearly gates. We will return to the new heaven and new earth once they are created.

Watchman, just clarifying that you are saying that while salvation is an instantaneous birth from above that involves the infusion of a new nature (that you have very aptly described),and that sanctification is a on going work that varies from saint to saint and does not end until we are in heaven.

46

News Item3/21/13 6:27 PM
Watchman  Find all comments by Watchman
continuing, in the hope that it may help someone.

Christ's blood which is able to cleanse him. He obeys out of love. He guards jealously his heart, his eyes and his mouth for fear that he may offend his loving heavenly father, and fears that he may fall to incur his anger.

His nature has definitely changed and this is evident to everyone because this is no flash in the pan. This is an enduring change and the fruit of the Spirit are evident.

Now with time this person may backslide from neglect of the means, from allowing his heart to grow cold, from losing his first love etc. BUT in a backslidden state he knows he is like a fish out of water. The rebellion may continue for some time- maybe even years, but the Lord will not forgot his loved one and will bring him back by use of the rod of affliction and chastisement.

Those who have never known this radical change may nevertheless lay claim to conversion and profess to follow the Lord. But they will not know what it is to hate sin, love the Lord and his people, receive answers to prayer, be fed with milk and meat for the soul. They are like the seed in the parable of the sower; the many temporary believers who will abandon the faith because the seed never took root for various reasons(Luke 8).

TBC..

45

News Item3/21/13 5:57 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
P.S.

I may owe some yet another apology for a long winded, somewhat cranky beginning post in another thread. I was a little out of sorts this AM.
All of you who I have been speaking to over the past year have been great. There have been a few rough times, I guess because I say what's on my mind, but overall, it's been a great experience. I feel very fortunate that I came across a site that is filled with mature Christians as opposed to many others that left me unimpressed, to say the least.
While here, I have learned much, corrected some erroneous views, and am still inbetween on others. I've come to realize that no matter how much we debate on some theologies, we just won't know the answers until the new days begin. That's okay though because none of them are fatal; I believe God made everything we need to know, for now, crystal clear, although some things take some study.
I think you all are great and it's good that for the most part, everyone can usually agree to disagree, agreeably.
No need to respond...just wanted to clear the air.

44

News Item3/21/13 5:44 PM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
...
If we depart from this earth we who are saved go to heaven it does not come to us....
We go up briefly to be judged but heaven comes down.

Revelation 5:10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

43

News Item3/21/13 5:40 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Christopher000 wrote:
I am confused on a couple of the other items in the same post so I will need to do some reading before commenting.
I am also confused about some of the items in Rufus' post.

Good luck, I'm finished with this one.

42

News Item3/21/13 5:17 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
II Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Acts 8:56and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

If we depart from this earth we who are saved go to heaven it does not come to us.

I Corinthians 11:30 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
sin in our life does not keep us out

41

News Item3/21/13 5:02 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
I am confused on a couple of the other items in the same post so I will need to do some reading before commenting.
40
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