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FRIDAY, APRIL 18, 2014 | TIPS Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
COVER Page ALL News CHOICE VIDEOS User COMMENTS
Choice News SUNDAY, JAN 27, 2013| 69 comments| 1 commentary
Army Removes Crosses, Steeple from Chapel

The U.S. military ordered soldiers to remove a cross and a steeple from atop a chapel and to board up cross-shaped windows at a remote American forward operating base in Afghanistan.

The removal of Christian symbols from the chapel at Forward Operating Base Orgun-E came after a solider complained — leading American Atheists president David Silverman to send a letter to the Pentagon.

“Soldiers with minority religious beliefs and atheists often feel like second-class citizens when Christianity is seemingly officially endorsed by their own base,” Silverman told Fox News. “We are very happy the Pentagon and the Army decided to do the right thing.” ...


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Page 1 | Page 2 ·  Found: 69 user comment(s)
News Item1/30/13 11:58 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Mike wrote:
So objects cannot be good or bad, then. Neither Christian, nor pagan, till they be made into an idol and worshipped.
As I said earlier, when someone makes an object and then it Masquerades as or is esteemed as a Christian symbol, then it is a form of idolatry. I'm not saying that if someone makes a pair of shoes that is bad. But your point is well taken. For instance if I saw someone wearing a cross, I would not tell them not to; it would be a conscience issue. But, if the person considered the cross to be something in and of itself, then I would talk to them about it. In 1993 a Nun gave me a cross and a rosary in Bosnia. She felt it had intrinsic value; I kept it as a souvenier of my trip. Am I making my point clear? If not, please let me know. I may have to answer later though.
49

News Item1/30/13 11:32 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Frank wrote:
---
Objects themselves are NOTHING IS MY POINT.
So objects cannot be good or bad, then. Neither Christian, nor pagan, till they be made into an idol and worshipped.
48

News Item1/30/13 11:17 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
U.S.

[8] And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. (Num 21:8 KJV)

[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: [15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Jhn 3:14-15 KJV)

[4] He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (2Ki 18:4 KJV)

US. Although I didn’t research all your examples, it would appear you are confusing what God tells us to do versus man’s distortion of what God tells us to do. The serpent wasn’t a graven image because God said to make it and it served as a shadow of the real cross. The serpent itself was nothing! Notice in 2 Kings 18 how the children of God worshipped what He said to create. Here is the way I look at this; let a natural disaster destroy a Catholic icon and see what they say. You will quickly find out that they are idols or graven images they esteem beyond what God allows. Objects themselves are NOTHING IS MY POINT.

47

News Item1/30/13 5:39 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Thanks all for your responses to my earlier comment. As it seems key to the discussion here I would like to address the issue of graven images first. The second commandment is not violated by the making of graven images. God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent. The tabernacle had graven images of angels, bulls, a sea, flowers. The priest clothing had engraved stones upon it. The brass serpent did not become a violation of the second commandment until Israel bowed down and worshiped it before Hezekiah had it destroyed. The oxen that held the sea were not a violation of the second commandment, but the ones made by Aaron or the one set up Jeroboam were because they were worshiped as gods. (Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them) I think we would all agree an idol is anything we value above God. The cross was not viewed as a religious symbol until our Lord said to those who followed Him to take up their cross and follow Him. From that point on it took on a different meaning in the lives of those who are His disciples. That meaning was enhanced when it was upon a cross our Lord who knew no sin became sin for us. More to say, time to head to work. God bless.
46

News Item1/29/13 6:51 PM
Unporiftable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unporiftable Servant
cross about cross wrote:
The cross is made by men on earth. Thus it is "graven" by sinners.
Being therefore a graven image it is forbidden by God.
"Exod 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness OF ANYTHING that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
This does not mean carry a lump of wood or gold or silver or .....
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
I thought the Reformation had sorted out all the idolatry folks use.
more reply later on the issue of the cross, Mike from NY makes the point I was trying to say. Not sure what you are saying cross about the cross, everything I wear was by your definition graven by man, the car I drive, the house I live in, the computer I am typing on. So, you are losing me with your point, forgive me please for not understanding
45

News Item1/29/13 6:10 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Thanks John...I'll take a look at that later tonight or tomorrow.
You're welcome Chris. You may also like to read this text (so that it makes sense) when you substitute the word "stake" for "cross". Any other understanding of the "cross" does not fit at all.

Mark 15:20-21 KJV
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.

44

News Item1/29/13 5:56 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks John...I'll take a look at that later tonight or tomorrow.
43

News Item1/29/13 5:21 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Ezekiel 8:12-16 KJV
12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for **TAMMUZ**.
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Tammuz, Sunrise Services, Easter, they are all intertwined and are a subterfuginal effort of Satan to get Christians to commit spiritual adultery without them even knowing it.

Chris, here's a starter for you:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/tammuz.html

42

News Item1/29/13 4:53 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
I'm wondering of its ok to own a cross now...period? I see the cross as a reminder, nothing else. I don't rub them for good luck or anything, but just have them for reminders. Whenever I look at an empty cross, it just serves as a reminder. What do you all think? John, you said the cross represents the god Tamuz? I hadn't heard that but nevertheless, Jesus was still murdered on one so is it ok or not to own them? I have one made out of olive wood from Israel, and, well, I guess that's the only one I own.
41

News Item1/29/13 4:45 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Mike, why not have a true representation of the pole, like a simple vertical? Better still, have it as orthodoxy that no images be used, which would be a return to Reformation and Puritan principles. Why get cluttered up with all this symbolism anyway? Next thing you know, is that even Protestants are using icons and statues to help them with their worship.
Let the ecumenists worry about their crosses being removed. We have got the real thing, which is, "I am crucified with Christ", something the secular world cannot take away from us. Nor can they take away the fact that we are "washed in his blood", or "reconciled to God". These are the spiritual and hidden things, which no man can remove.
Good comment John. Here is the way I look at pseudo Christian idol worship, e.g. reverencing a cross. We cannot stop the lost from doing that, but when they say their idols represent true worship, then we should correct them. It is called contending for the faith and reproving the lost.

Cross about cross - good comment.

40

News Item1/29/13 10:50 AM
cross about cross  Find all comments by cross about cross
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Methinks some protest too much that the cross is a pagan symbol. If that were true this article would be meaningless because there would be no protest against it
The cross is made by men on earth. Thus it is "graven" by sinners.

Being therefore a graven image it is forbidden by God.

"Exod 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness OF ANYTHING that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

This does not mean carry a lump of wood or gold or silver or .....
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

I thought the Reformation had sorted out all the idolatry folks use.

39

News Item1/29/13 9:34 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Maybe we're missing the point, bro. The issue is, the Army is removing what they suppose is a symbol of Christianity. Whether it is or not is not the factor in deciding whether it is ok that they do so. Precedents done for the wrong reasons are precedents nonetheless. If cross, then why not Bible? That is how the fallen mind works. Arguing with them that the cross is not Christian would hold no water if the next issue is the Bible that is to be removed.
Mike, why not have a true representation of the pole, like a simple vertical? Better still, have it as orthodoxy that no images be used, which would be a return to Reformation and Puritan principles. Why get cluttered up with all this symbolism anyway? Next thing you know, is that even Protestants are using icons and statues to help them with their worship.

Let the ecumenists worry about their crosses being removed. We have got the real thing, which is, "I am crucified with Christ", something the secular world cannot take away from us. Nor can they take away the fact that we are "washed in his blood", or "reconciled to God". These are the spiritual and hidden things, which no man can remove.

38

News Item1/29/13 9:13 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
US, methinks you should do some more research on this, and present your findings. If the "cross" as we know it is not a Christian symbol but representative of the god Tammuz, we ought to think more about it. After all, there are many symbols found within christendom which are not Christian at all. In the text you quoted, the literal translation of "stauros" is not "cross" but "stake" or a "post", indicating a simple upright beam.
Makes you wonder where on earth the "cross" came from. It does me, I must say. The JW's have plenty of false doctrine regarding salvation etc. but on issues like Christmas, the Cross and other pagan things, they have much right. Unless I'm wrong, of course.
Maybe we're missing the point, bro. The issue is, the Army is removing what they suppose is a symbol of Christianity. Whether it is or not is not the factor in deciding whether it is ok that they do so. Precedents done for the wrong reasons are precedents nonetheless. If cross, then why not Bible? That is how the fallen mind works. Arguing with them that the cross is not Christian would hold no water if the next issue is the Bible that is to be removed.
37

News Item1/29/13 7:26 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Sign Post writes:
A willingness to learn is what is most important. I am remember the baggage I picked up during my first 5 years as a Christian which I had to discard because as I studied the bible I found that I was in error!

And that I have. I agree...thanks.

36

News Item1/29/13 7:22 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Methinks some protest too much that the cross is a pagan symbol. If that were true this article would be meaningless because there would be no protest against it. Whether you agree with it or not it a universal symbol associated with Christianity. The apostle Paul even said, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Gal. 6:14 KJV)
US, methinks you should do some more research on this, and present your findings. If the "cross" as we know it is not a Christian symbol but representative of the god Tammuz, we ought to think more about it. After all, there are many symbols found within christendom which are not Christian at all. In the text you quoted, the literal translation of "stauros" is not "cross" but "stake" or a "post", indicating a simple upright beam.

Makes you wonder where on earth the "cross" came from. It does me, I must say. The JW's have plenty of false doctrine regarding salvation etc. but on issues like Christmas, the Cross and other pagan things, they have much right. Unless I'm wrong, of course.

35

News Item1/29/13 7:07 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Mike wrote:
"The army is doing this so as not to offend Afghan Muslims. Shoot them, yes, offend, no."

Simple point, but good one, Mike. We sure do make a lot of sense these days with our over the top political correctness and all

34

News Item1/29/13 6:26 AM
Flabmyghast  Find all comments by Flabmyghast
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
...The apostle Paul even said, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Gal. 6:14 KJV)

Do you really think that the apostle Paul had in mind a symbolic cross? Or was he referring to the work that Christ did upon the cross? Talk about stretching a verse!

33

News Item1/29/13 5:35 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Methinks some protest too much that the cross is a pagan symbol. If that were true this article would be meaningless because there would be no protest against it. Whether you agree with it or not it a universal symbol associated with Christianity. The apostle Paul even said, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Gal. 6:14 KJV) Also, pastor Mike the first amendment is a restriction on congress not the people.
32

News Item1/28/13 4:35 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Pastor Mike wrote:
I'd like to take this opportunity to applaud the United States Army for doing the right thing.
It's looking increasing likely that atheism will one day soon take over as the majority religion in the United States. When that day comes and Christians become a minority, hopefully they will finally understand why it's so important to protect minority rights and the true meaning behind the words "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
There's just a couple things wrong in your post.

1) The army is doing this so as not to offend Afghan Muslims. Shoot them, yes, offend, no.

2) You'd have to demonstrate how Congress made a law with regard to an establishmnent of religion in the hanging up of a cross. And you'd have to show why the free exercise clause would not apply.

Other than that, you will not forever be an athiest, Mike. That is guaranteed.

31

News Item1/28/13 3:14 PM
Maggie  Find all comments by Maggie
San Jose John wrote:
Unless you guys can breed faster than the Muslims the crosses are just going to be replaced with crescents eventually.
They don't need to breed; they control the education system.
30
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