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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/25/2014
WEDNESDAY, DEC 19, 2012  |  166 comments
Ancient Dead Sea Scrolls digitised in co-project by Israel and Google
Anyone with an internet connection will now be able to take a new look into the Biblical past through an online archive of high-resolution images of the 2,000-year-old Dead Sea Scrolls completed by the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) and Google.

The scrolls, most of them on parchment, are the oldest copies of the Hebrew Bible and include secular text dating from the third century BC to the first century AD.

IAA, the custodian of the scrolls that shed light on the life of Jews and early Christians at the time of Jesus, said it has collaborated with Google's research and development centre in Israel for the past two and a half years to upload digitised images of thousands of fragments from the collection.

Yossi Matias, the head of Google-Israel R&D centre, described the project launch as "exciting". ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.telegraph.co.uk

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Page 1 | Page 2 ·  Found: 166 user comment(s)
News Item12/30/12 4:46 PM
Question  Find all comments by Question
Frank wrote:
I am not familiar with this fellow who uses the moniker "question". I hope he reads my response to him and responds. But, I know it was a blessing to him regardless.
I must have missed your post Frank. Can you please point me to it?

Neil wrote:
...unbelieving scholars often commit childishly simple errors in reasoning, & pose no real threat to Christianity at all
I find it interesting that Spurgeon was a self taught linguist and those who have written of his knowledge testify that he had a very good grasp of Greek and Hebrew. Also in the Pastors' college, which was set up to raise a generation of educated preachers, many had to be taught English because their previous education was so wanting. But, the syllabus, as they studied farther, included among other subjects the original languages of Scripture and also the formal study of logic.

I believe that this was the practice in the better schools and colleges of the day (and carried on into the mid-20th century), which often sought to sharpen student intellects by engaging in debating societies.

John UK wrote:
..Humbling, eh?
John I have no idea why you've gone down this rabbit hole!
146

News Item12/30/12 4:35 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
That is fantastic! What a blessing it is to fellowship with like-minded folks. I will pray for the sister's witnessing for a week, starting tonight. But you and I both know that God's word will not come back to him void without accomplishing His purposes. It will be blessing to me to intercede with prayer. You may tell her that some old man from Clearwater is doing that.
Brother, I cannot tell you what a joy it is to have my elder brother praying for us in this venture. I am so looking forward to it and, as you say, the increase will be in accordance with God's will and purpose. My evangelistic sister is also well aware of this principle, and always seeks to be where God wants her, at what time, and talking to whoever the Lord chooses, on subjects decided by the Lord, that he may work in their heart, in ways purposed by himself. And he will have all the glory whatever transpires.
145

News Item12/30/12 4:30 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Question wrote:
Neil, here is what I had in mind:
"A man to comment well should be able to read the Bible in the original..."
I agree. While I have some pretty sketchy knowledge of Greek myself, what I do know has been helpful nonetheless, & the Lexicon & Berry Interlinear have often come in handy. Even learning nothing more than Greek words at least improves one's vocabulary, which helps even in secular affairs (English borrows a lot from Greek).

One legacy of grammar-school & university Greek has been use of its alphabet in the sciences. Now it is part of the Unicode standard.

144

News Item12/30/12 4:25 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
We did indeed have a wonderful time of fellowship tonight bro! And when I got home, a sister phoned up and had so much to tell me about her witnessing week, it took her 45 minutes to relate it all, and then it was only a potted account. She has arranged a witnessing buffet locally and invited many lost souls, so that we can build a bridge with those who are seeking but feel a bit intimidated about attending a Christian meeting. It is a week tomorrow, and I would appreciate prayer for that, as we shall need the leading and guiding of the Spirit that, being wise, we might win souls to the Lord.
That is fantastic! What a blessing it is to fellowship with like-minded folks. I will pray for the sister's witnessing for a week, starting tonight. But you and I both know that God's word will not come back to him void without accomplishing His purposes. It will be blessing to me to intercede with prayer. You may tell her that some old man from Clearwater is doing that.

I am not familiar with this fellow who uses the moniker "question". I hope he reads my response to him and responds. But, I know it was a blessing to him regardless.

143

News Item12/30/12 4:09 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
Sorry you misunderstood my comment and position. Hope your study was a wonderful time of fellowship!
We did indeed have a wonderful time of fellowship tonight bro! And when I got home, a sister phoned up and had so much to tell me about her witnessing week, it took her 45 minutes to relate it all, and then it was only a potted account. She has arranged a witnessing buffet locally and invited many lost souls, so that we can build a bridge with those who are seeking but feel a bit intimidated about attending a Christian meeting. It is a week tomorrow, and I would appreciate prayer for that, as we shall need the leading and guiding of the Spirit that, being wise, we might win souls to the Lord.

Question wrote:
So you are saying that to be spiritual and experience true Christianity one must be ignorant?!
Wow!
The answer to your question is no, I never said that. But it is a fact that an intellectual (take Peake or Dawkins for examples), despite their great learnings, yet still cannot say from their heart concerning the Saviour, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

There is not one unregenerate soul who can say that, except it be revealed to him from heaven. Humbling, eh?

142

News Item12/30/12 3:46 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Question wrote:
So you are saying that to be spiritual and experience true Christianity one must be ignorant?!
Wow!
I once got into an argument with a Catholic apologist. I asked him why the RCC withheld the scriptures from the common man and actually killed them if they were caught with scriptures in their own language. His response was that the common man was ignorant and wouldn't understand the scriptures and would therefore learn incorrectly and teach errors to others. So, that is why they killed them.

So my thought is ignorance is not a prerequisite to being spiritual, but neither is being what is commonly called a scholar. Most of the present church believes that the more degrees you have the more spiritual you must be. I call that Roman/Protestantism.

Certainly you aren't saying that.

141

News Item12/30/12 12:40 PM
Question  Find all comments by Question
John UK wrote:
..MH says that for Christianity to be the real thing, it must be both experimental and experiential, and I agree.
So you are saying that to be spiritual and experience true Christianity one must be ignorant?!

Wow!

140

News Item12/30/12 12:35 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Frank, I have to go get ready for my weekly Bible Lesson, but I would say that your whole comment is correct in the most part. I would be interested to know what it is that I am saying about the NASB which is wrong.
I tell you what, are you able to tell me of something in the NASB, a text, or a chapter, or whatever, that I have not already from reading the KJV? If yes, I would like to see it. If no, then I am not disadvantaged at all by reading the KJV.
Well brother, perhaps we agree more than I thought? Anyway, you said that the NASB manuscripts were corrupted and by extension then the translation would be corrupted. I never said anything bad about the KJ, except that the translators were not divinely inspired; the same as the NASB translators. All translations contain errors; but the KJ and the NASB's errors didn't detract from God's word. IT IS PRESERVED! I also understand the ESV is very good, but I haven't really looked at it.

Sorry you misunderstood my comment and position. Hope your study was a wonderful time of fellowship!

139

News Item12/30/12 12:18 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
John, I like your thought process, even though you are wrong on the NASB.
Frank, I have to go get ready for my weekly Bible Lesson, but I would say that your whole comment is correct in the most part. I would be interested to know what it is that I am saying about the NASB which is wrong.

I tell you what, are you able to tell me of something in the NASB, a text, or a chapter, or whatever, that I have not already from reading the KJV? If yes, I would like to see it. If no, then I am not disadvantaged at all by reading the KJV.

Question
I think you do err. And I think you miss the epicentre of Christianity.
Galatians 5:16-18 KJV
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

My claim is that Christianity is both spiritual and supernatural. Your comments are more similar to those of religious liberals, anglican clergy etc.

MH says that for Christianity to be the real thing, it must be both experimental and experiential, and I agree.

138

News Item12/30/12 11:54 AM
Question  Find all comments by Question
Neil, here is what I had in mind:

"A man to comment well should be able to read the Bible in the original. Every minister should aim at a tolerable proficiency both in the Hebrew and the Greek. These two languages will give him a library at a small expense, an inexhaustible thesaurus, a mine of spiritual wealth. Really, the effort of acquiring a language is not so prodigious that brethren of moderate abilities should so frequently shrink from the attempt. A minister ought to attain enough of these tongues to be at least able to make out a passage by the aid of a lexicon, so as to be sure that he is not misrepresenting the Spirit of God in his discoursings, but is, as nearly as he can judge, giving forth what the Lord intended to reveal by the language employed. Such knowledge would prevent his founding doctrines upon expressions in our version when nothing at all analogous is to be found in the inspired original"

137

News Item12/30/12 11:38 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Correct. Check out the acquaintance of these simple folks.
Acts 4:13 KJV
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
John, I like your thought process, even though you are wrong on the NASB. I am always suspect when someone in the body of Christ uses the title Dr., as if that somehow makes them more credible or spiritual. That is what the church does by and large today. The below is something you might find interesting and that few people ever really consider.

1 Corinthians 14:34, Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Note: this fact negates the concept that truth is only found in scholars or in those who are leaders and teachers in the church. Otherwise why would Paul tell women to ask their “own husbands”. Surely being a husband didn’t qualify someone as a biblical scholar.

136

News Item12/30/12 11:28 AM
Question  Find all comments by Question
John UK wrote:
Correct. Check out the acquaintance of these simple folks.
Acts 4:13 KJV
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Firstly, koine greek was the common man's language in those days, and so greek would not have been an issue for them.

Secondly these unlearned and ignorant men had the direct guidance and leading of the Holy Spirit as well as direct inspiration as they penned the NT.

Thirdly, among the apostles one was a trained pharisee, and although as one born out of due time, he was the one who of whom Peter wrote that there were many hard things to be understood in his writings, and certainly of all the apostles he has contributed most to the NT.

If ignorance were the virtue you try to make it out to be then certainly todays churches are very blessed indeed!

Neil wrote:
You might appreciate this:
Thank you Neil. Incredible indeed.

It is said of Isaac Watts that he could read greek at the age of 4!

I did want to post an apposite quote from Spurgeon, but sadly space prevents. Maybe next time.

135

News Item12/30/12 7:52 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Question wrote:
BTW James White has studied NT Greek to a high standard and I am sure that linguistically he is able to hold his own.
All that said, textual questions go way beyond linguistics and require an aquaintance of far more than just the mechanics of the language.
Correct. Check out the acquaintance of these simple folks.

Acts 4:13 KJV
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

134

News Item12/30/12 12:40 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Question wrote:
NT greek is a dead language and so it is impossible to get the kind of acquaintance which one can obtain with a language still spoken today. However with daily usage, one can become fairly proficient.
You might appreciate this: Before the modern era, English grammar schools customarily taught Greek, & apparently not just the dialect used in the Classical era by Homer & Plato. I base this on a passing remark by Matthew Henry in the Preface to his NT Commentary: “…when in our childhood we were taught to read English out of the translation & Greek out of the originals of these books.”

He takes it for *granted* that anyone who could read his commentary could also read Greek! Incredible.

133

News Item12/29/12 9:21 PM
Question  Find all comments by Question
isitonthemenu wrote:
..remember even brother James White is not the last word in textual matters! Look forward to your SA critique after the expected summer publication (D.V.)
NT greek is a dead language and so it is impossible to get the kind of acquaintance which one can obtain with a language still spoken today. However with daily usage, one can become fairly proficient.

BTW James White has studied NT Greek to a high standard and I am sure that linguistically he is able to hold his own.

All that said, textual questions go way beyond linguistics and require an aquaintance of far more than just the mechanics of the language.

I shall look out for brother Hembd's book and shall certainly read it, although I suspect that he will also not have the last word on the subject! If I have the time to critique it for SA readers, I shall certainly try and post up something.

Just in case you should think that all I have read is White and Carson, I should add that I have read extensively from the other side too: which includes stuff from the TBS, Dean Burgon, Scrivener, David O. Fuller, Theodore Letis, Edward Hills etc.

Blessings.

132

News Item12/29/12 5:16 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
NASB Preface
"In the history of English Bible translations, the King James Version is the most prestigious. This time-honored version of 1611, itself a revision of the Bishops' Bible of 1568, became the basis for the English Revised Version appearing in 1881 (New Testament) and 1885 (Old Testament). The American counterpart of this last work was published in 1901 as the American Standard Version."

The average person reading the preface gets the impression that Bibles have merely been revised, with minor changes being made. Later on in the preface, it makes mention of the 1959 version making use of "recent discoveries" in textual sources, which is a more honest statement. But where is the mention of the MAJOR change in NT textual sources in the translation of the RV's NT in 1881? This RV was NOT merely a revision of the AV's NT, but a new translation based on the Greek NT of Westcott and Hort, which itself was firmly derived from the Vaticanus, a corrupt Greek text of which the custodian was none other than the pope of Rome.

Now if the publishers of the NASB were to claim the Vaticanus has restored to the church the true copy of the originals, then the KJV should never be spoken of as "prestigious" but a corrupt version. So why didn't they?

131

News Item12/28/12 7:11 PM
isitonthemenu  Find all comments by isitonthemenu
http://www.puritanboard.com/f63/only-perfect-translation-70942/index2.html

11-28-2011 09:23 AM
11-28-2011 10:12 PM

Brother Question

Note the above link-the 1st comment by Albert Hembd, take particular notice of the 2nd comment.

Most evangelicals are not familiar with Hebrew/Greek; few even recall Latin verbs from a 1970's education! Most evangelicals who claim to have studied the issue of Bible translation have merely read a few (unbiased?) books;interestingly the majority who are vocal against the KJV are most familiar with the works of Dr James White and/or Carson, Kutileck, Wallace etc. or Ruckmanites and Riplinger! BUT how many evangelicals can read a Greek menu and order even a simple meal, so we rely upon?

You made some points about the TBS & your own studies, but your own studies are limited if you are not familiar with the original languages? Why do you think a Hebrew student like Albert Hembd is writing that book and why was vaticanus rejected in the Protestant Reformation yet so revered by the neo Reformed today? I await the forthcoming book and trust you will keep a look out for it and remember even brother James White is not the last word in textual matters! Look forward to your SA critique after the expected summer publication (D.V.)

130

News Item12/28/12 4:35 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
NASB Preface
"In the history of English Bible translations, the King James Version is the most prestigious. This time-honored version of 1611, itself a revision of the Bishops' Bible of 1568, became the basis for the English Revised Version appearing in 1881 (New Testament) and 1885 (Old Testament). The American counterpart of this last work was published in 1901 as the American Standard Version. The ASV, a product of both British and American scholarship, has been highly regarded for its scholarship and accuracy. [earlier editions read, "it has frequently been used as a standard for other translations. It is still recognized as a valuable tool for study of the Scriptures"] Recognizing the values of the American Standard Version, the Lockman Foundation felt an urgency to preserve these and other lasting values of the ASV by incorporating recent discoveries of Hebrew and Greek textual sources and by rendering it into more current English. Therefore, in 1959 a new translation project was launched, based on the time-honored principles of translation of the ASV and KJV. The result is the New American Standard Bible."

KJV is most prestigious, and time honoured!! Sure it is.

But what do the wise see as deliberately missing from this portion?

129

News Item12/28/12 9:20 AM
Question  Find all comments by Question
Michael Hranek wrote:
Question
Seems we are getting far afield from Digitizing the Dead Sea Scrolls but your comment made me want to ask you.
30 to 40 years ago a lot of Pentecostal people would have been considered people who feared God and loved the Bible and took it as having authority over their lives, people who believed and preached "Ye Must Be Born Again", people who believed in repentance for the remission of sin, who believed in being holy separate from the world and false religions such as Roman Catholicism, people who believed in believers baptism by immersion like the Baptists, people who believed in praying for the lost until they were saved.
Have you seen their drift into "playing church" with becoming more and more like other denominations with less fiery preaching against sin and hell for 'entertainment', ecumenism, a non-offensive social gospel and their own version of Purpose Deceived emergent mysticism where they seem to avoid the KJV and the Truth of Scripture and Biblical holiness like the plague unless of course it suits their agenda?
Sure Michael no denomination is exempt from infiltration.
128

News Item12/28/12 8:15 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Later....
127
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