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By the opening years of the seventeenth century, the Reformation had turned European Christianity into a conglomeration of conflicting sects. The Roman Catholic Council of Trent drew a firm line between Catholics and Protestants by declaring that Roman Catholic tradition represents the final authority when it comes to interpreting the Bible.
In 1618, a war between Protestants and Catholics broke out when some Protestants tossed two Catholic ambassadors out a second-story window. Fortunately, the ambassadors survived. Unfortunately, they survived because they landed in a heap of horse manure. Historians have named this foul-smelling event the “Defenestration of Prague,” which proves once and for all that historians have no sense of humor when it comes to naming events.
The Defenestration of Prague—or, as I prefer to call it, “The Great Stinky Second-Story Window Tossing”—was how the Thirty Years’...
John for JESUS wrote: If Tom didn't choose them then they are not on the team. If God did not choose to save the faithful then they would not be saved.
So a man can be full of faith (faithful), yet not saved unless God goes on to choose them?
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Just now reading this thread. Abraham wasn't saved until the Lord Jesus was crucified and resurrected? Is that what is being insinuated? God is not God of dead, but the living (in His presence not on earth obviously), the God of Abraham...my Bible says our Lord was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, God is not limited by time.
Abraham was awaiting Jesus' day from Hades because it was Jesus who would save him. Remember Abraham didn't go straight to Heaven? Think of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. When Abraham did go to the Father it wasn't by his actions, it was God that drew him up. Just like it will be in the Ressurection. We can't go there, that's why God will send His angels to take us to where He is.
Just now reading this thread. Abraham wasn't saved until the Lord Jesus was crucified and resurrected? Is that what is being insinuated? God is not God of dead, but the living (in His presence not on earth obviously), the God of Abraham...my Bible says our Lord was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, God is not limited by time. As to the other thread of this discussion, the Bible says in John 3 a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven, and JOhn 6 reminds us that no man can come unto the Lord Jesus except it were given unto by the Father. Romans 5 tells that Adam (as our head) plunge the whole human race on the path of destruction, yet God in His mercy chose out of the condemned ones a people for Himself. Remember ALL that Father gives SHALL come, so you cannot say it is bestowed as a gift upon everybody and they just have to exercise it. We are spiritually blind (II Cor. 4) and spiritually dead (Eph. 2) if a blind man can give himself sight and dead man give himself life, then an unbeliever can give himself faith, it is clear it must be a supernatural act, we must be born from above.
John UK wrote: Tom was given the task of captain for a new football team. He was told to choose 11 players from a pool of 30. So Tom said to the players standing around: "Now then, if you want to join the fooball team, I want you to raise your hand." Eleven men raised their hand. Then Tom thought, "I have my team, but hey, I never chose any one of them."
If Tom didn't choose them then they are not on the team. If God did not choose to save the faithful then they would not be saved.
John for JESUS wrote: God's election is conditional. He doesn't choose to save unbelievers. He saves those who have faith, at faith. He is proactive in the process by creating us to be born in the time and place we are and in sending His Son and the preaching of the gospel. God decided that on His own.
Apparently your god cannot save since he needs men to do that for themselves.
Apparently your god does not elect since men dead in sin and spiritually blind do this salvation by works all by themselves. (Papist in action)
Apparently your god is not sovereign and sinners under the dominion of sin and Satan can overcome the mere headcold of sin to choose salvation with human faculties.
Apparently you don't believe the Bible.
Your god is clearly not as powerful as the potter. 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Here is another verse you don't believe since according to your religion men draw themselves.... 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John for JESUS wrote: God's election is conditional. He doesn't choose to save unbelievers. He saves those who have faith, at faith. He is proactive in the process by creating us to be born in the time and place we are and in sending His Son and the preaching of the gospel. God decided that on His own.
Tom was given the task of captain for a new football team. He was told to choose 11 players from a pool of 30. So Tom said to the players standing around: "Now then, if you want to join the fooball team, I want you to raise your hand." Eleven men raised their hand. Then Tom thought, "I have my team, but hey, I never chose any one of them."
John UK wrote: Of course God chooses whom he will save; it is called unconditional election. That is, he chooses without respect to anything in the man. Now you say that God's hands are tied, and that he HAS to choose those whom respond favourably to the gospel. The problem with that is that no man by nature will respond favourably to the gospel. It is also no choice of God; he is not involved; he sits around waiting for a man to make a decision; and when the man makes the decision, God chooses him. Ridiculous, John.
God's election is conditional. He doesn't choose to save unbelievers. He saves those who have faith, at faith. He is proactive in the process by creating us to be born in the time and place we are and in sending His Son and the preaching of the gospel. God decided that on His own.
John for JESUS wrote: How can it be out of God's hands when he chooses who He will save?
Of course God chooses whom he will save; it is called unconditional election. That is, he chooses without respect to anything in the man.
Now you say that God's hands are tied, and that he HAS to choose those whom respond favourably to the gospel. The problem with that is that no man by nature will respond favourably to the gospel. It is also no choice of God; he is not involved; he sits around waiting for a man to make a decision; and when the man makes the decision, God chooses him. Ridiculous, John.
John for JESUS wrote: Election is God selecting who he will save. He elects to have mercy on those who do believe. You're correct, some of the blinded Jews did become obey God and believe. Proving that those that are blind don't always stay that way.
John, if you think about it for long enough, you will realise that you take election out of God's hands, and place it firmly in the hands of sinners. This is not good doctrine.
Election is God selecting who he will save. He elects to have mercy on those who do believe. You're correct, some of the blinded Jews did become obey God and believe. Proving that those that are blind don't always stay that way.
John for JESUS wrote: They were ignorant of God's righteousness. They thought they could reject Christ and earn their salvation. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have ever believed in Jesus. They didn't want to. It doesn't appeal to our pride and flesh to rely on Christ for salvation.
The entire early church was made up of Jews just like them. Election made the difference.
They were ignorant of God's righteousness. They thought they could reject Christ and earn their salvation. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have ever believed in Jesus. They didn't want to. It doesn't appeal to our pride and flesh to rely on Christ for salvation.
John for JESUS wrote: Read Rms 10:18. Have they not all heard the gospel? Yes, their sound went into all the world and their words to the ends of the earth. It didn't stay hid for long.
A single text out of context, John. Observe the earlier part:
Romans 10:2-4 KJV 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
It says they had "no knowledge", yet were zealous for God. This is the result of total depravity. Men seeking God, but always in the wrong way. And the reason they do that, is because they have not had the revelation of God necessary to understand spiritual truth.
Read Rms 10:18. Have they not all heard the gospel? Yes, their sound went into all the world and their words to the ends of the earth. It didn't stay hid for long.
John for JESUS wrote: I'd say Peter believed. Either people believe or they don't, it's up to them once God enlightens them through nature and the gospel.
Of course Peter believed. He received the revelation of who Jesus was. The Father did not reveal that to all, but only to some. How you can maintain that God reveals truth to all men is beyond me.
John for JESUS wrote: To say an act is not meritorious for something doesn't mean it was an act of someone else.
Sure. No-one else can believe for you. A sinner must believe for himself.
However...
You must believe in a Man whom you cannot see, who has eternally existed as an invisible spirit, and who made all things according to his own will and purpose, and who appeared to many ordinary people during the time of the Old Testament as a Christophony, and who in due course contracted to a span and appeared as a baby in a womb to be born in Bethlehem, where his mother had to give birth in a filthy cattle shed. Then visible, this Man grew up like any other child, until the age of thirty, when he began to preach. He called some followers, and twelve special ones he called apostles, including Judas Iscariot. Despite the amazing works he did during the next three years, none of them really believed on him, and could not make him out. Judas even was totally dissatisfied with the Man, expecting something political from The Messiah, and sold him down the river. Peter however, was given a revelation from the Man's Father, and made confession, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Peter believed. Or did he?
John for JESUS wrote: Hmmhi...Abraham was in paradise. Unrighteous people don't go to heaven. Once Jesus died, Abraham was then reconciled to God by the righteousness of Christ and went to heaven.
Abraham sat on Heaven's front porch swing for hundreds of years before Christ died. On Resurrection Sunday, he entered Heaven.
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